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Old 07-24-2009, 04:37 AM   #11
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ranger sxt :
Some of your posting looks to me like devil's advocate-style picking.

In the real world of security, we are taking people who have often never handled a gun before and expecting them to pass the test after maybe 40 hours of training and anywhere from 50 to 500 rounds fired. There isn't enough money budgeted to send the guards on a vacation to Gunsite. You may dream of a world in which every guard is a pistol master but it doesn't exist and it isn't necessary.
There isn't anything realistic about firing a set of two or three shots and stopping when you have 18 to use / Tactical reloads are a garbage idea / Administrative reloads won't happen in real life / Mechanically stepping up to a flimsy plastic pole " barricade " to fire is laughable.
True, the target may be realistic, but it confuses people who are still trying to understand the fundamentals of marksmanship and it is helping cost people their jobs.
I don't think it is reasonable to expect every guard to buy a gun, join a range, and practice at his own expense, just to meet a minimum standard, but that is what the guards are having to do. ( Company guns are normally not available for practice use ).

It is also not necessary to pull a shooter off the range for one safety violation. You can warn people the first time. Other ways to be disqualified include firing after the whistle or drawing before the whistle, as well as shooting on someone else's target.

Let's not be absurd about reloads. Reloading could be taught and tested separately from the firing segment. That would cut down on the games and allow the shooter to concentrate more on hitting the target.

We have never been told that the 1.5 YD. distance simulates a charging man. As far as we know, it represents Tom Ridge pointing a gun at us close up.

I did not ask for a bull's eye target ; I just wonder why the old Transtar II can't suffice.

I can't recall Cooper talking about " alternative indexing " but I'll take your word for it.

And don't get me started on the Gov't " Safety Test " ( We'll save that for another time ).

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Old 07-24-2009, 07:06 AM   #12
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ranger sxt :
Some of your posting looks to me like devil's advocate-style picking.
And your thread looks like you're whining. It is not a perfect test, but it does test good real-world skills.

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Originally Posted by Rentacop View Post
In the real world of security, we are taking people who have often never handled a gun before and expecting them to pass the test after maybe 40 hours of training and anywhere from 50 to 500 rounds fired. There isn't enough money budgeted to send the guards on a vacation to Gunsite. You may dream of a world in which every guard is a pistol master but it doesn't exist and it isn't necessary.
I'm sorry, but when Yeager and Suarez (and I presume all of the other people who you mentioned as trainers) can put forth information in 16 hours and between 500 and 100 rounds that will allow people who have never fired a pistol before to pass this test, then there is an inherent problem in the training of your guards. If that is the case, the government's ICE test is not to blame, but rather lazy companies.

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There isn't anything realistic about firing a set of two or three shots and stopping when you have 18 to use /
That tends to test accuracy, and reduces the amount of time that people spend on the range. In your world of training, where each phase takes 18 rounds of ammo, 36 if you need to reload, you would spend all day at the range.

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Tactical reloads are a garbage idea /
I disagree, as does most of the training world. But that's a completely different thread...

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Administrative reloads won't happen in real life /
No, they won't. That's why they're called administrative.

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Originally Posted by Rentacop View Post
Mechanically stepping up to a flimsy plastic pole " barricade " to fire is laughable.
It probably is. Yet it still tests the skill of shooting around a barricade.

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Originally Posted by Rentacop View Post
True, the target may be realistic, but it confuses people who are still trying to understand the fundamentals of marksmanship and it is helping cost people their jobs.
But you were just complaining that the plastic pole isn't realistic enough. Which do you want: a realistic course, or one that everyone with a pulse can pass.

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I don't think it is reasonable to expect every guard to buy a gun, join a range, and practice at his own expense, just to meet a minimum standard, but that is what the guards are having to do. ( Company guns are normally not available for practice use ).
I think that is very reasonable, especially when there are other qualified candidates who are willing to do just that. I have held four different jobs in my life. In three of them, I have had to spend some of my own time and money in order to keep up with everything involved, either more time studying or time selling off the clock. The fourth I had to spend time politicking. If they want a job that does not require self-sacrifice, Wal-Mart is hiring...

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It is also not necessary to pull a shooter off the range for one safety violation. You can warn people the first time. Other ways to be disqualified include firing after the whistle or drawing before the whistle, as well as shooting on someone else's target.
All of those are very valid reasons to be pulled off the line. Safety with firearms is something that warnings should not exist for. When I work with the Boy Scouts, one safety violation has them thrown off the range. If pre-pubescent boys can handle the rules, I would assume that grown men can as well. Firing early or late can be seen as cheating...

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Let's not be absurd about reloads. Reloading could be taught and tested separately from the firing segment. That would cut down on the games and allow the shooter to concentrate more on hitting the target.
Why make two tests? They have you on the range, with ammo and your weapons.

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We have never been told that the 1.5 YD. distance simulates a charging man. As far as we know, it represents Tom Ridge pointing a gun at us close up.
What would you do if Tom Ridge were pointing a gun at you close up? Presumably, you would get your gun out of the holster and put bullets into him as fast as possible.

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I did not ask for a bull's eye target ; I just wonder why the old Transtar II can't suffice.
Psychological reasons. If you are qualifying on something that looks more human, you will be more mentally prepared to use deadly force on a person. More and more trainers in the civilian world are stepping away from "Center of Mass" and describing exactly where you need to shoot: heart or brain. They often include a basic crash course in anatomy as well. They are trying to mentally prepare you for ending someone's life.

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I can't recall Cooper talking about " alternative indexing " but I'll take your word for it.
It was in his commentaries from about 1995, and in his book from the 60s(?), before Modern Technique of the Pistol was written.

Seriously, this whole thread seems to be a complaint that you can't pass this test because it's different than what you're used to...
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:19 PM   #13
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I guess we have a similar situation in my agency with Q courses designed by LE personnel and about 800 Corrections officers that have to pass. The Peace officers in Corrections get little annual training on their firearms skills unless they are assigned to a section that carries regularly.

They get pretty comprehensive training in their Jail Academy (from LE trainers) and the PO's get additional training in the Peace Officer academy. There are those that sit at a post for 5 years and do nothing to further their training and have no aspirations to go beyond that with their careers (to many it is not a career, just a job with pretty good bennies)

LEO's get 16 hours of firearms training each year in their mandatory training week. They Q up to 5 times annually (4 day fires and 1 night fire) + Q courses on shotgun and rifle. In all an LEO or any other officer that carries will shoot around 6-700 rds on our dime a year. That is better than most agencies.

I take that a little farther. I shoot at least 400 rds a month in personal training, 100-150/month at IPSC matches. I probably shot 6-7000 rds a year, mostly my own ammo on my own time. The guys (and there are more than a few) that show up for Quals and whine about how difficult it is are the same guys that will end up in a flag draped casket if the SHTF at work. Their choice, I cannot fix them.

You know the course. Practice each skill set at least once a quarter with 4X the amount of shots you will shoot in the course (do the drill four times) and you will likely see the course is a cake walk.

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Old 07-24-2009, 01:20 PM   #14
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Gentlemen-
I've heard that several FPS officers lost their jobs from failure on the ICE Course. I do not wish to name the contracts involved but I know of about 50 security guards on Federal contracts that were let go for failing it too. The new hiring standards favor former cops and soldiers and the military is reputedly using the ICE Course, so the soldiers have a head start.
I'm a soldier, and I've never shot this course of fire in the military. To be honest, the military is lacking in the handgun training department. The Q course I fired was WAY easier than this one. As a matter of fact, the military is lacking in the rifle marksmanship department. Most soldiers only fire live rounds once a year during qualification. It's quite sad, really. What's really sad is how many soldiers have to go through the basic rifle qualification several times because they couldn't qualify the first time.

...what I said earlier about security/law enforcement who can't shoot - yeah, apply that to the military, as well.

So you KNOW 50 guards who were fired because they couldn't pass this qualification course?? Or you heard that's why they were fired?

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The test looks easier on paper than it really is.
I'm a firearms instructor. I've shot Q courses that are much harder than this one. I've written quite a few courses of fire my ownself (was required for TCLEOSE Firearms Instructor Course). I'm sorry to say this course just isn't THAT hard.

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Jeff Cooper was right when he said point shooting seems a lot faster than it is. Cooper said to use the sights pretty much all the time. Those who study the Modern Technique know how to do so without slowing down to align the sights.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again, here. "Never get into a mindset and stay there." While Cooper is a gunfighting god, there are new and somewhat-approved "point shooting" techniques that are quite effective. Using Paul Castle's Center Axis Relock (CAR) system, I can put a pretty tight group center mass in a target 1.5yds away faster than the FPS can count the rounds I've fired (Sabre). It may go against Cooper's ideology, but it's effective. If Cooper were alive today, I'm quite sure he'd approve of Castle's methods.

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From what I can see, James Yeager, Gabe Suarez, Mas Ayoob, Clint Smith, Todd Jarett and Rob Pincus are 20 years ahead of our Federal Government when it comes to pistolcraft.
Sure, and they're also ahead of the military and most law enforcement agencies. I know for a fact that one of them (Gabe Suarez) would debunk what you're saying about "point shooting". Gabe's philosophy is "whatever it takes to put rounds into the bad guy."

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Final note : A security guard should be trained to draw and fire two-handed accurately and safely...and legally. Whether he can count his shots, remember the definitions of tactical, emergency and administrative reloads, transfer the gun to his weak hand and fire etc. are relatively unimportant. The recent shootout at the Holocaust Museum illustrates the real needs : Multiple shots to achieve a hit, quick draw, quick wits, marksmanship.
I disagree. It's one thing for the average ordinary everyday civilian with a concealed handgun license doesn't learn to be proficient with a firearm. Security professionals are in the profession of protecting life and property. Yes, the primary job is to "observe and report", but when you arm a person in the performance of their duties, they are engaging in the profession of arms. A security professional needs to be as proficient with their firearm as the soldier, police officer, etc.

There are several "types" of security officers.

First, have the retired old guy who does security for the sake of staying employed. Having a job makes him feel a sense of usefulness.

Second, you have the lazy person who does security because it's not labor intensive. Security officers don't hump shingles, sweep floors, or any "real" work. They want to clock in and sit in a chair until it's time to clock out.

Third, you have the "cop wanna-be". These guys are the ones with chips on their shoulders. They thirst for the opportunity to effect a citizens arrest. They, often times, have what some refer to as the "Wyatt Earp Syndrome". They have the gun, and they are large and in charge.

Fourth, you have the mentally challenged. They do security because they are a warm body manning a guard shack somewhere, and they're not "smart enough" to really do anything else.

Then, you have the security professional. This is the person who takes his job seriously, doesn't have anything to prove, and "gets it"... the fact that he's simply there to protect the client's property or personnel, mostly by being an authoritive presence. This is the person who goes to work, does his/her job, and completes any additional training to maintain proficiency in his/her profession. This is the person who keeps up with continuing education courses, and going to the firing range on a regular basis (other than time for qualification).

If you've never been convicted of a Class A Misdemeanor or above, been convicted of a crime involving "moral turpitude", or convicted of a family violence charge covered under the Lautenberg law, it's extremely easy to get a job in security in most major cities all across the country. The more "professional" the security officer is, the harder it is to get hired on with a particular company for particular jobs. For example, Silver Star Security in Fort Worth, Texas ran a newspaper ad back in 2001 for an "easy lazy job". In the article, they boasted of "get paid to watch TV". The job was low pay, and quite easy to get. Working for the Bass Brothers in Fort Worth, TX, however, is quite a bit more difficult. They have their own training, their own Q course (which makes the one you posted look like CPT Tango's Monthly Rimfire Shootout), and pays quite a bit more. The guys who work for Silver Star are (generally) "security guards" while the guys who work for the Bass Brothers are "security professionals".

I never train as if my job depended on it... I train as if my LIFE depended on it. With that mindset, I've never had a problem with a Q course.
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:39 PM   #15
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Guys-
Let me remind you all that I passed the test, so I'm not whining to justify some failure of mine.
My mention of rules and such does not mean I disagree with every rule or procedure I mention. In some cases, I'm trying to paint a clear picture of the test and the reasons people fail it.
One thing I forgot to mention is that missing the head on a " body armor " drill results in a 5-point penalty, so if your shot misses the scoring areas entirely, you lose 10 points by missing the head shot. Also, with only 50 RDs to work with, it matters if two bullets go through the same hole and one is counted as a miss. Worst of all, FPS warns everyone not to " blow the center out of the target " because this makes it impossible to count individual bullet strikes ; so everyone tries to spread shots around while keeping them in the kill zone. ( They should patch the target a couple times if good marksmanship bothers them that much ).
I did not say we should fire 18-shot strings. A realistic test might be...
Load 5 rounds, draw and empty the gun with all shots on a standard sheet of paper. Perform emergency reload, come to ready position and holster.

Load 7 rounds, fire while working up through the head until empty.

Load 4 rounds. Take cover, kneeling behind a solid object provided. Fire all 4 in 12 seconds at 25 yards. Emergency reload and aim in again.

Get Off The X Drill ( hard to do indoors )

And so on...
Hydrashok-
One type of guard you left out is the Federal Contract Guard, who is constantly belittled and told he has no arrest powers, is expected to take abuse from Federal employees, is issued a radio that doesn't work, 15 year old obsolete ammunition, forbidden to wear body armor, issued 3 shirts and 2 pairs of trousers and is expected to look sharp and military at all times. He's ordered to sit for 8-12 hours doing nothing ( no book, no cell phone, no food, no drink, NO NOTHING. Then they decide that this person they treat like a dog must be a skilled gunfighter.
Oh well, there I go whining again.
Oh yes, those 50 guards were fired because government contracts require them to pass ICE Course in 2 or 3 tries or leave.

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Old 07-24-2009, 09:51 PM   #16
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Dude your arguing with two guys that really do know their stuff.

If you don't like your job start looking for a new one.

And on a side note: No employee can work 8 hours without time to eat and use the restroom.

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Old 07-24-2009, 10:16 PM   #17
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Cpt -
I never challenged the qualifications of these guys. Their expertise does not automatically mean my opinion is wrong, though.

Most of this debate is opinion. One man's reasonable test is another's " test too tough for a beginner ". One says if you draw with your finger against the trigger, you should be sent to the showers. Another says, " Warn him the first time ".

We disagree. So what ? I hope you guys are happy to have learned what the ICE Course is and to know about the controversy surrounding it.
Years ago, a Federal Protective Officer was asked by a guard, how the guard was expected to sit for 8 hours without a break.
The FPO replied, " You aren't allowed to eat or drink and if you don't eat or drink, you won't have to use the rest room. So you don't need a break. "

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Old 07-26-2009, 09:59 PM   #18
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So I went to the range today and shot this qual. I was well with in the times allotted and found the only area that were hard for me was moving from the 7 yard line to the 15 yard line with no shooting between. I also did not like the knelling stuff. I scored a 243, 97% on the qual. I will grant you I used a B-27E target because I did not have an ICE QT target to use. I scored the target using the ICE-QT score lines. I can see how an unexperienced shooter could have a hard time with the qual. It is up and down in pace and times, the directions are not that great and you have to make several movements per section. Over all I liked it and it had a fun element to it. Thanks for posting it.

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Old 07-27-2009, 12:55 PM   #19
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We hav started a new class and coure of fire that would fail most Peace Officers, Corrections Officers or Security Guards. If an officer wants to carry a single action pistol he must be "Master" qualified for a minimum of 2 consecutive years, provide his own gun, attend a one day course that is really a 10 hour long "test". He will shoot a variety of drills to gauge his proficiency with the weapon. At the conclusion, when he is good and worn out from the Texas heat, he will shoot a course of fire that is MUCH more difficult than our regular Q course and must score 90%. Fail (89%) and you have to wait one year to re-apply for the class. Have one safety violation no matter how minor, you have wait one year to reapply.

If you want to attend the class and expect to pass, you had better be proficient in the handling of a single action auto. Yes, this course is designed to FAIL people.

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Old 07-27-2009, 05:29 PM   #20
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Hydrashok, what was/is your job in the Military, which branch?
When I was active, noticed that the Qualification requirements and training varied widely.

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