"Dry" ranges good or bad?


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Old 02-17-2009, 04:25 AM   #1
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Default "Dry" ranges good or bad?

I was just over on Knob Creek's forum and read a thread that I was curious to get your opinion on. One guy (from Ohio and attending the shoot and show for the 1st time) seemed to be very threatened by the fact that at the main gate to the range he and his buddy were asked if they had any firearms. He said he didn't (he lied) but his buddy said he did and they made him zip tie his chamber. Now I don't have a problem with it because I'm sure Kenny, who owns Knob Creek, has a bad case of the insurance man bugs. Here is a link to the thread, read it and express your concerns!

I was shocked and amazed. - Knob Creek Gun Range Forums



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Old 02-17-2009, 08:44 AM   #2
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Dry firing does not have to be a chore. It doesn't have to go on for ages, a successful session can be as short as 10 minutes. My best sessions are short, I generally only stay longer when I am having difficulty getting it right. Try to have a specific goal in mind when you start a session. If your follow through is a by small, try to concentrate on that. And try to never finish on a negative. Remember, we're trying to reinforce the positives, so stick with it until something feels good, even on a bad day.



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Old 02-17-2009, 11:16 AM   #3
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Default I would run a hot range if the lawyers would let me.

Quote:
They made my brother remove his weapon and unload it at which point the disabled the firearm by putting a plastic tie in the breech.

Of course, the first porta potty we came to he simply reloaded the firearm and put it back in its holster.

I want an answer to a very simple question. What gives KCR the mistaken notion they can disarm a legally armed United States Citizen?

I suppose I'll get some blather about it being private property and we can do as we please, or some equally lame excuse about insurance requirements.

Supposedly places like this stand for the Second Amendment. Personally, I think that is complete bullsugar. I saw NOTHING that led me to the conclusion that the KCR range is little more than fascists.

I suspect this was my last visit.
This is from the post DragunovSKS linked to at the beginning of this thread.

The question is about whether businesses should run a hot or cold range, and at shooting sport events whether people should be required to surrender arms/unload weapons, etc.

Before I give my opinion I would like to address a couple of the things above.

Quote:
What gives KCR the mistaken notion they can disarm a legally armed United States Citizen?
It's not a mistaken notion. While the courts and government might not respect private property rights, I do. If the owner of Knob Creek wants somone to unload firearms before they enter his property to participate in his event, then he has the right to require they to do that. If someone doesn't like it they can choose not participate.

Quote:
I suppose I'll get some blather about it being private property and we can do as we please, or some equally lame excuse about insurance requirements.
I think I have already expressed my views about private property. As far lame insurance requirements, the lame thing is the litigious society we live in where something happens and the lawyers circle whoever has the most money. Lets say the range allows everyone to carry guns, and then someone gets shot in a negligent discharge. The dummy that didn't follow the basic safety rules is at fault, but he doesn't have any money, so guess who gets sued. In order to protect themselves from financial ruin, the range gets insurance, but in order to get rates they can afford the insurance company requires them to run a cold range, where you can load your weapon on the firing line only. Blame the lawyers, blame the insurance companies, blames dummies that shoot themselves and other people, but don't blame the range. If they didn't play by the rules they wouldn't be there for you to enjoy at all.

Quote:
Supposedly places like this stand for the Second Amendment. Personally, I think that is complete bullsugar. I saw NOTHING that led me to the conclusion that the KCR range is little more than fascists.
It would seem our author has learned from the opposition, simply throwing bombs at those he doesn't like or agree with, attaching a label that probably he doesn't even understand.

Facism (n): A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

What does this have to do with Knob Creek holding huge machine gun shoots. Because the have safety policies designed to address the lowest common denominator (read as dumbest person there) they are facist? Hardly.

In my humble opinion, without the interference of governments, lawyers, or insurance companies I would like to think that we could run a hot range with a no brandishing requirement. What I mean is that if you are carrying a gun for self-defense continue to carry it, but keep it put away to help avoid safety problems. If you want to get it out, you would be allowed to do so at the firing line, or a designated firearms handling area (I imagine something like a counter attached to a wall with a sign that says "POINT GUN THIS WAY". The wall would be designed to soak up a negligent discharge).

Consider a police station as an example. Everyone there is carrying a loaded gun, but no one is pulling guns out at random and showing them off (at least there shouldn't be). Police stations often have designated areas with bullet traps for loading/unloading and handling firearms. This reduces the opportunity for negligent discharge. Now realize that a business doesn't have the control over customers that a police department has over employees. Basically every Tom, Dick, & Harry can come in the door and you have no awareness of their competency level. The time it takes to admonish someone for a safety violation might be longer than it takes for a negligent discharge.
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Old 02-17-2009, 12:33 PM   #4
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Same deal as going to a "gun" show. Has to be zip tied. No difference IMO other than other guys are live firing. If you want a hot gun, just put your name on the years long waiting list to get on the line to shoot.
If you are CCW at that event you shouldn't have to lock and clear though I would say. I have seen guys open carry at that event (for ego's sake I guess). In KY you can CCW as long as there are no restrictions (post office, bank etc) or a sign on private property denying the right.
Ill keep my opinions of the KCR gang to myself, but they are legit in having open carry, long or short, to be locked and cleared. Not all gun owners (unfortunately) are responsible enough to carrry around a hot weapon. Just how it is.

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Old 02-17-2009, 06:43 PM   #5
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Good reply Bighead, you made some pretty good points. I agree with the rules set forth at Knob Creek, including the one in which you have to clear and zip-tie your firearm, after all it is private property. There are some pretty stupid people that go there from time to time. Last year while walking through the show under the large shelter house I found myself at the business end of a Thompson sub-machine because some guy was checking it out and decided it would be alright to point it at me. In this case I'm glad that the rule in question is in place.

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Old 02-18-2009, 07:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bighead View Post
This is from the post DragunovSKS linked to at the beginning of this thread.

The question is about whether businesses should run a hot or cold range, and at shooting sport events whether people should be required to surrender arms/unload weapons, etc.

Before I give my opinion I would like to address a couple of the things above.



It's not a mistaken notion. While the courts and government might not respect private property rights, I do. If the owner of Knob Creek wants somone to unload firearms before they enter his property to participate in his event, then he has the right to require they to do that. If someone doesn't like it they can choose not participate.



I think I have already expressed my views about private property. As far lame insurance requirements, the lame thing is the litigious society we live in where something happens and the lawyers circle whoever has the most money. Lets say the range allows everyone to carry guns, and then someone gets shot in a negligent discharge. The dummy that didn't follow the basic safety rules is at fault, but he doesn't have any money, so guess who gets sued. In order to protect themselves from financial ruin, the range gets insurance, but in order to get rates they can afford the insurance company requires them to run a cold range, where you can load your weapon on the firing line only. Blame the lawyers, blame the insurance companies, blames dummies that shoot themselves and other people, but don't blame the range. If they didn't play by the rules they wouldn't be there for you to enjoy at all.



It would seem our author has learned from the opposition, simply throwing bombs at those he doesn't like or agree with, attaching a label that probably he doesn't even understand.

Facism (n): A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

What does this have to do with Knob Creek holding huge machine gun shoots. Because the have safety policies designed to address the lowest common denominator (read as dumbest person there) they are facist? Hardly.

In my humble opinion, without the interference of governments, lawyers, or insurance companies I would like to think that we could run a hot range with a no brandishing requirement. What I mean is that if you are carrying a gun for self-defense continue to carry it, but keep it put away to help avoid safety problems. If you want to get it out, you would be allowed to do so at the firing line, or a designated firearms handling area (I imagine something like a counter attached to a wall with a sign that says "POINT GUN THIS WAY". The wall would be designed to soak up a negligent discharge).

Consider a police station as an example. Everyone there is carrying a loaded gun, but no one is pulling guns out at random and showing them off (at least there shouldn't be). Police stations often have designated areas with bullet traps for loading/unloading and handling firearms. This reduces the opportunity for negligent discharge. Now realize that a business doesn't have the control over customers that a police department has over employees. Basically every Tom, Dick, & Harry can come in the door and you have no awareness of their competency level. The time it takes to admonish someone for a safety violation might be longer than it takes for a negligent discharge.
Posts like this is why this is THE BEST firearm site on the web. I surfed many, and this is the only site that consistently feels like it's membership is responsible adults with some gray matter between their ears.

Excellent post.
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Old 02-19-2009, 01:19 AM   #7
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I have mixed feelings on this . Normally, I think making distinctions between loaded and unloaded guns is dangerous ; that if all guns are considered loaded, there's no problem .
At gun shows, however, people are told that all guns are unloaded and some may tend to handle them with less care . If someone forgets that his carry gun is loaded or lets someone else handle it , who assumes it is not loaded...
As long as police were providing armed security, the rule was probably sensible , I say .
My opinion is only for gun shows . I believe a firing range can be run safely as a hot range in which guns are kept loaded and holstered .

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Old 02-28-2009, 07:21 PM   #8
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If a newbie can weigh in....
I am opposed to "dry" or "cold" ranges across the board. I believe dry practice or "snapping in " is extremely valuable. As soon as your are done with that, load it.
I find it perplexing that shows, ranges, facilities, and the like insist on these policies because of safety. Time passes on, accident free and they think its working. Nope, its just being postponed. Murphy blinked.

Good dicussion, good points. Thank you.
Jay



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