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Old 02-03-2011, 10:05 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by FreedomFighter69 View Post
If you have Ten Years of firearms experience then you're more than qualified !
NO, NO, NO! Just because someone has handled a firearm for however many years doesn't "qualify" them to handle a real life threat. I've been driving longer than some of those boys in NASCAR have been alive but that doesn't "qualify" me to drive a race car.

I see this mentality in the fire service. "I've been doing this job for 20 years & I don't need to train on that". I know a gentleman on a smaller department; he worked his way up through the ranks & made Asst. Chief. He was responsible for the fire fighting activities his department did at emergencies. He was responsible for the safety of not only his personnel but those of other departments that might come to assist. The kicker is, HE HAD NEVER BEEN IN A BURNING STRUCTURE! He had absolutely no experience as to what it was like to be in a situation where you can't see, don't know where you are, & to be in a situation that can kill you.

I agree with the thought behind this whole thread. There needs to be more training, more affordable training offered to those who carry. I think that everyone who carries should be required to take a defensive type class every year. I think more than once a year is needed but once a year is a start. One can spend hours at the range & practice this move & that move but without some kind of pressure on you, you're not going to get real life experience.
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Old 02-04-2011, 12:37 PM   #22
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I just read thru all the posts, I don't think anyone here was getting "defensive, angry or scared".....simple fact is, what you are talking about doesn't exist, I don't think its a bad idea, however I also don't see it as working out to be a sound business plan either as I don't think there is a large enough customer pool to support the cost of running it.....if you disagree I challenge you to prove me wrong.

Till then, I will echo what others have said, take as many courses as you can and then practice practice practice what you have learned both dry and live.
Again, I know it doesn't exist....As for not being a good business plan, so far, just here alone I reckon (all things being equal and different addresses aside) I could get Octalman, Fred007, his son and Nozzlehead to sign up, with me that is 5....now lets take my range for example, an indoor range that fits 10, it closes at 6 so you run the class on say a Wed, lets say you charge $50 pp a class and insist on everyone having 100 rds of ammo, class then runs for 90mins with the start of the class being a breif talk on mind sets, situation awareness etc, then a period of live fire exersices (lets also say we include everyone loading everyone elses weapons and placing a mystery squib for yout tap rack and go FTF practice. stuff like that), and the instructor walking up n down behind kicking out the bad habits. the finishing off with another talk at the end and maybe even some 'heres a couple you can practice dry at home' excersises' to finish with.

lets assume everyone has at least a 9, plinking ammo at my range runs at 13.99 a box - assuming no one has brought their own ammo you could be looking a reasonable taking in $779.80 for an additional 90mins running time, have that every 2 weeks or even once a month for that class wont prevent you running another class on the off nights, with the option of adding additional days if popularity - that's a taking of over $3,000 a month. I don't know about you but that sounds like a "sound business plan" to me, make it fun, make it accessible and above all else, make it affordable and you will have ppl coming back again and again

But hey, that's just my opinion and what I would like to do, it's also what I feel is the responsible thing to do for anyone who permanently carries a deadly weapon and to be honest if I knew enough I would even think about running such a class myself, but unfortunately I don't for the moment....but who knows what the future might hold
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Old 02-04-2011, 04:57 PM   #23
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Interesting thoughts on a business. Understand you are throwing out ideas, so no criticism intended. Just relating my experience. I looked into operating an outdoor range a while back. Found one that had just closed. Convenient location, nice facility, but could not get enough business to stay open. Said that people complained $7 an hour was too much. Passed on that.

Local gun shop with attached 6 lane indoor range charges $19 per hour per lane. You can buy a yearly membership for $149 and shoot all you want, except weekends. I know a guy that works there. He says the range is packed during the weekend and busy on most weekdays. However, the range operates at a loss to attract gun and accessory sales.

Belong to a local gun club with an outdoor range. Shoot all you want for $100 per year. Limited to pistol ammo. They hold friendly and fun events several times a month. Have asked about bringing training in, no luck so far. The events involve a little competition and certainly help get you comfortable with handling your chosen pistol.

Like previously mentioned, I found several local facilities that do personal or small group training. Most have been operating for several years and longer.

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Old 02-04-2011, 06:27 PM   #24
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The liability issues for a course of instruction like is being discussed here is extremely high. I know a gent who's taught basic stuff for many years. He's built a range, and usually teachs one-on-one, multi-positiional shooting, shooting from a vehicle, while moving, thru doors/windows, and like that. The insurance for those activities is high. Most public ranges will not allow movement on the firing line, drawing from a holster, more than a 15 degree included angle of fire, or multiple targets. He does not advertise, all is word of mouth. The range is NOT public, as he can't afford the insurance, and still make training reasonably priced.

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Old 02-05-2011, 04:51 PM   #25
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lets assume everyone has at least a 9, plinking ammo at my range runs at 13.99 a box - assuming no one has brought their own ammo you could be looking a reasonable taking in $779.80 for an additional 90mins running time, have that every 2 weeks or even once a month for that class wont prevent you running another class on the off nights, with the option of adding additional days if popularity - that's a taking of over $3,000 a month. I don't know about you but that sounds like a "sound business plan" to me, make it fun, make it accessible and above all else, make it affordable and you will have ppl coming back again and again
I was with you until this paragraph. I'm not real sure what you're saying here. Where did you come up with the $779.80? At $50pp & buying ammo there ($69.95 per 100rds) it's $119.95 a class. (If you fill it with 10 people thats $1199.50.) As much as I would enjoy a class such as you've described, I can't afford to spend this kind of money on a hobby a few times a month. If you ran this 2x a month: $239.90 in classes & ammo, I drive a dodge 2500 w/ a hemi that drinks 2 gal. per mile so figure $40 a month in fuel (you live in Neb so I'm sure most drive trucks there), extra ammo to practice what I've learned during the off time - 3 boxes $41.97, right here your up to $321.87 a month. I can't take that from my family.

Kinda a catch 22; I agree there needs to be classes like this but how do you make it affordable?
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Old 02-05-2011, 05:39 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Nozzlehead View Post
I was with you until this paragraph. I'm not real sure what you're saying here. Where did you come up with the $779.80? At $50pp & buying ammo there ($69.95 per 100rds) it's $119.95 a class. (If you fill it with 10 people thats $1199.50.) As much as I would enjoy a class such as you've described, I can't afford to spend this kind of money on a hobby a few times a month. If you ran this 2x a month: $239.90 in classes & ammo, I drive a dodge 2500 w/ a hemi that drinks 2 gal. per mile so figure $40 a month in fuel (you live in Neb so I'm sure most drive trucks there), extra ammo to practice what I've learned during the off time - 3 boxes $41.97, right here your up to $321.87 a month. I can't take that from my family.

Kinda a catch 22; I agree there needs to be classes like this but how do you make it affordable?
I think your ammo cost of$69.95 per 100 threw your calculation out of whack.

You have to pay to play and control the cost that you can. In this case your ammo can be much lower if you reload or buy from cheaper source. Your fuel cost can be lower if you have a more efficient car. Other than that...you might have to find a free range and teacher (maybe form a group?) but good luck with that!
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Old 02-06-2011, 06:16 AM   #27
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I know everyone has been talking about classes, but have you considered getting involved w/ the IDPA? Some gun clubs have "competitions" monthly that you can participate in. There are several really good scenarios that you can run through for exposure, and while it is called competition, the Safety Officers and other shooters will still give good feedback.
Just a thought.

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Old 02-07-2011, 11:40 AM   #28
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kk I might have gotten the math a little wrong, but it's not exactly written in stone I was only spitballin numbers to be honest (and at 6am I might add)

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The liability issues for a course of instruction like is being discussed here is extremely high.
I don't think there would be much in the way of liability, esp from a range that already offers pistol classes up to adv lv 3 with force on force sessions - remember I am not talking about a 'teaching class' as such but rather an instructor there to offer advice and 'guidance session' less about teaching anything overly new to ppl but a way to get an hours practice in with someone to watch a offer advice to prevent bad habits setting in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzlehead View Post
I can't afford to spend this kind of money on a hobby a few times a month.
I have a 22 for a hobby and it's cheap and cheerful to shoot and I really enjoy taking it to the range and trying to put smiley faces into targets at 25ft got the hell of it, however I don't consider my CCW permit to be a hobby.


"If you ran this 2x a month: $239.90 in classes"

$50 a class by 2 = $100.00 (say a 100rds per class) - 13.99 (per box of 50) x 4 = 55.96 at a grand total of $155.96 a month - I am not going to include gas prices as that is an irrelevant cost, that fuel will be expended regardless of where you drive, if it's that bad get a smaller vehicle (it's $7.60 a gallon atm back home, I don't complain about the price of gas over here LOL).

diamondav, that is a good idea and I have looked into it, there's a couple of minor issues preventing me from joining one atm but aside from them the competition and advice offered is slightly different then what I am looking for, defensive shooting and competition shooting have 2 completely different philosophies and mind sets, the habits that they instill while there is nothing wrong with them at all, and I don't want anyone to think I am saying anything against em, are still not what I am looking for at the moment. Maybe something I will be looking more into later on in the year but not just yet.
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