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Old 10-24-2007, 04:36 PM   #11
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I tend to vary between the Combat Isosceles and regular Isosceles, depending on what I am doing. The more I move, the more that I tend to lean towards regular. I was taught this style many years ago by an old Marine in the family, who had used it in Korea and SE Asia.

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Old 10-25-2007, 09:30 AM   #12
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My initial training (and practice) was, upper body square to the target (Isoscoles) and lower body 45 degrees knees slightly flexed (Horse Stance). I guess you call that "combat Isoscoles"... After some slightly more advanced training - move&shoot, kneeling / prone / obstacles, etc., I stopped caring about body position and try to "focus" (pun) on sight picture.
What are you training for? Consistent repetition to train muscle memory is a good and useful thing, especially if it provides quickness to ACCURACY. Under stress you will revert to that habit reflexively, whether the stress is competition or combat.
I personally don't train to stand like Alan Ladd in the middle of the street at High Noon. (If that movie is too old for you, think Marshall Dillon.) Maybe I'm missing something and should reaffirm the basics - thank you for your example of self-examination.

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Old 10-25-2007, 12:40 PM   #13
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+1 on the body armor observation. I have shot weaver for many years and am trying to reteach myself to shoot isoscoles. HK smg school taught me a variation of the isoscoles that stresses flexing the abs and rolling the shoulders forward. Recoil is all but negated. I can empty an entire mag from an MP-5 into a 2" circle at 15 yards and keep 5 shot bursts from a Thompson SMG in a pie plate at 75 yards. M-16 full auto is like a Laser, almost one hole 3 shot bursts at 25 yards.

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Old 10-30-2007, 11:36 PM   #14
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Well golly, that is all well and good if you are talking about target shooting, where no one is shooting back at you. If shots are fired and you are standing still long enough to get the proper angle on your elbow and wrist, you are dead meat. There is a rule of thumb that says we fight as we train. That is true. Your first instinct should be to find and use cover and / or concealment.

In addition to the nice discussion about Weaver, Isosceles, or whatever, it would also be a good idea to train while laying on your back, or single handed and single off-hand, while laying on your back, or prone. Single hand with a flash light, or holding onto a person you are trying to protect. Simulate and train shooting with your off hand, because your strong hand has been taken out. Practice reloading one handed. Practice clearing drills one handed. In a prolonged gun fight (very rare) there is a great possibility that your hands will become slippery with blood. I wouldn't recommend practicing with slippery hands, but I would try to mentally prepare for that.

I'm of the school of thought that says each shooter should practice with the grip that he or she gets the best performance with. Iso or Weaver, or something in between, but to not get locked into that being the only way you can shoot.
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Old 11-03-2007, 10:56 AM   #15
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I let the 75 officers that I train use whatever stance works best for them. The main thing that I look at is this, "Does the stance that they are using allow them to transition from their weapon to another force option without having to readjust their feet?"

Our officers range from their mid 20's to their mid 60's in age. I have guys who have had no actual police experience to those who have retired with over 20 years service and are using this as a "second" retirement job. I have officers who have been in combat situations and then have those who have never even held a weapon before the come to my range. Because my officers are so varied I've got to keep most everything I do very simple.

The KISS principle works for me.

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Old 11-05-2007, 01:49 PM   #16
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The discussion on cover is quite appropriate. For years we had right hand, left hand barricade parts of the commission course. All this taught was that a 2x4 is cover. We all know a 2x4 will not even slow down a .22 but that was the subliminal message sent.
I made 18"X18"X48" "Barricades" out of 2x4's and plywood and covered them with scrap vinyl flooring that had a stone or brick look. There are a lot of masonry mailboxes around here that are excellent cover. The officers now look for real cover not concealment.

Training should be as realistic as possible. One handed shooting, one handed reloads, clearing jams (both one and two handed) as well as shooting from unusual positions such as flat on your back and sitting in a car should be incorporated as much as possible.

Just getting some people to hit the target can be a challenge. Practice is good, realistic practice is better.

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Old 11-05-2007, 02:32 PM   #17
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Modified Weaver all the way...

1) I don't wear body armor... 99.9% of us don't. And I'd like to present as small a target as possible.
2) I grew up shooting rifles. Left foot forward, weight forward, left elbow under.
3) I'm an athlete. I throw a football that way, a baseball that way, I finish a golf swing that way... Left foot forward, weight forward.

I "almost" lock out my right arm, aligning all the bones with the barrel.
My left elbow is low, tucked, and my left hand is pulling back HARD on my grip fingers. My right hand is pushing HARD forward and high on the grip, to control recoil and re-acquire sights. My left biceps and right triceps take the hit, to manage muzzle flip. Bot thumbs forward, left stacked on right.
Left knee is slightly bent, and 75% of my weight is on it. My right foot is back, roughly 45 degrees from the line of sight.

It feels "athletic" to me, and natural. I can move and shoot, like a left corner-back, in football. I can advance, or I can drop-step, but my torso is always positioned to shoot.

If I have to go left handed, my body goes even MORE clockwise, and I shoot straight extended, target-style. Tough, right-eye-dominant, but it feels most natural.

I think in a gun fight, your body's natural response will be a balance of flight or fight, protecting itself from a hit, why maintaining an aggressive posture... IF you have the upper hand.

Squaring up isosceles would make me feel more exposed. I'm a big target... 6'4" and 240lbs.

I also practice A LOT one handed. There will be many instances in the real world of a gunfight, that your weak hand will be quite busy... protecting others, moving things, opening doors, and getting back up off the ground!!!

I feel that what stance you use punching paper at the range, is completely irrelevant when the chips are down. I'm not squaring up with anyone, letting out half a breath, holding, and squeezing progressively until the trigger breaks... I'm dumping 14 rounds of 230gr ACP firepower out of my XD into your center of mass, from whatever position I have to. THEN... I'll figure out how to stand for mag number 2...

JeffWard

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Old 11-09-2007, 10:07 AM   #18
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Default Stances are situational

I don't see much point in getting too dogmatic about a stance. The bullet strikes where the sights are aligned when the shot breaks.

Stances are training platforms. You need to start from something to learn sight alignment, sight picture, trigger press, and follow through.

In defensive shooting you should be moving (which makes any stance kind of moot.) or utilizing cover which will ultimately dictate what position you will be in.

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