Aiming and double vision

[KellyTTE]

Train with both eyes open. Besides, in a stress situation, try as you might, your body won't allow you to shut an eye. Seriously. To pass on a great drill:

I suspect you were focused not on the target or the sight but on air 3/4 of the way to the target. This focus will result it a fairly crisp sight and target.

Start at 5, 10 and 15 yards. Line up the sights and target with both eyes open. Focus is on the sight. You will see one target and one sight.

Move back to 25 and further. Line up the sights and target with both eyes open. Focus is on the sight. You will see TWO targets. It has to do with ocular deviation. Now change your focus to a imaginary point 1/2 to 3/4 of the way to the target. You will have a fairly crisp sight and one target.

This technique can be used at any distance. It is fast and effective with practice.

This has been your moment of Zen.

[matt g]

Originally Posted by KellyTTE

Train with both eyes open. Besides, in a stress situation, try as you might, your body won't allow you to shut an eye. Seriously. To pass on a great drill:

I'm calling bull **** on this one. I've done it thousands of times. It takes hard work to develop muscle memory, but once you've developed it, it's infallible.

If you're convinced otherwise, we can meet up some place and I can prove to you that you're wrong. I can slam my left eye shut as I acquire my sight picture faster than you can acquire a sight picture with both eyes open, and I'd bet damn near anything on it.

[sgtdeath66]

right on matt. i hate it when people say that the human body wont let you do something in a stressful situation. no two bodies are alike

[matt g]

Originally Posted by sgtdeath66

right on matt. i hate it when people say that the human body wont let you do something in a stressful situation. no two bodies are alike

That's absolutely true. I've been shooting that way since I was 4 years old. Somehow, 30 years of doing something the exact same way makes you really good at it regardless of what someone else thinks.

Here is another fun examples: when I was 19, I had an air cooled VW. If you've ever worked one, you know that you can only see about 1/8 of the bolts that you need to access. An old VW guru once told me that to get those bolts started, you had to close your eyes and feel the threads. Another told me that you have to hold you tongue just right.

To this day, I still close my eyes any time that I have to do something mechanical that I can't see. I also stick my tongue out, like a Peanuts cartoon, any time that I'm concentrating on something mechanical.

It worked for me as I learned to do something. I learned to do something in a particular manner and it worked very well for me. Because of that, I continue to do it that way.

I can pull a VW engine and have it stripped down to the minor parts in a couple of hours. I can use a 4" barreled 1911 to put a magazine of 7 rounds into an 8" steel plate at 50 yards in under 10 seconds. I can TIG weld damn near any metal and make it look easy and have my welds come out looking like art.

We all have our own ways of doing stuff. My brain learned early on to develop it's own methods of learning and to never stray from them once it has developed it's own technique. This allowed my brain to train itself in the "proper" method of doing things with the information that is supplied to it.

[Ineffable]

Originally Posted by matt g

I can use a 4" barreled 1911 to put a magazine of 7 rounds into an 8" steel plate at 50 yards in under 10 seconds.

I'd have to see that. I'm not saying you can't, just that I'd have to see it.

[matt g]

Originally Posted by Ineffable

I'd have to see that. I'm not saying you can't, just that I'd have to see it.

Here is one of my steels, you can see the 3 groups where I made the 3 pauses in my breathing:



I sold the pistol last week so I could keep the electricity turned on. You'll have to wait for me to get back to work and get a new piece to see it happen in person.

I had a lot of ammo through that little sucker, probably close to 15k rounds. It was an extension of my arm. It was nothing for me to put shots where it wanted them. It was also an early, forged Kimber Compact II that was made when they still carried a 1 1/2" 3 round group at 25 yards accuracy guarantee.

[kdog]

I can go with that.

My friend I go shooting with and who also gave me his guns to shoot with, befor I was permitted to purchase my own pistol, is a shooting instructor for the german police (not the Polizei, but the Bundespolizei. That is the police that has the GSG9 anti terror group).
I know he knows what he is talking about, but I think he is making one mistake on me. At least he did a few weeks ago on the shooting range.

In one of my previos threads, somebody posted a link to a youtube video about the right pistol grip.
I saw that video a few days befor I went to the range and practiced that grip shown in the video, and it felt very nice and comfortable.
So we went to the range and I was hitting everyting, including the sand befor the target, exept what I wanted to hit.
So my friend came behind me and looked at my grip and tried to force my hands to his duty pistolgrip, that works best for him. And that felt really odd and uncomfortable. I hit even less with his grip version.

Next time at the range, I used his grip and the grip shown in the video and adapted it the a grip that suits me and my hands best and I hit a hole lot more, then the time befor.

I guess, that kind of proves, that not everything that works for someone else, will also work for you or me in the exact same way.

I also suppose it is pretty much the same whith the aiming.
What I do at the moment, I take an old pair of glasses, that match my right, dominat eye in the lense correction, and I put a small peace of tape on the left lense covering the area of my pupil.
That way, I can keep both eyes open but not have the double vision.
I see the sight crystal clear as it should be and the target out of focus.

My initial question was more to find out how you guys aim. One eye or both eyes and if it is possible, to train the eyes to not have double vision when aiming with both eyes, or if it is a matter as mentioned above. One person can and the other can`t.

Ken

[matt g]

Originally Posted by kdog

I can go with that.

My friend I go shooting with and who also gave me his guns to shoot with, befor I was permitted to purchase my own pistol, is a shooting instructor for the german police (not the Polizei, but the Bundespolizei. That is the police that has the GSG9 anti terror group).
I know he knows what he is talking about, but I think he is making one mistake on me. At least he did a few weeks ago on the shooting range.

In one of my previos threads, somebody posted a link to a youtube video about the right pistol grip.
I saw that video a few days befor I went to the range and practiced that grip shown in the video, and it felt very nice and comfortable.
So we went to the range and I was hitting everyting, including the sand befor the target, exept what I wanted to hit.
So my friend came behind me and looked at my grip and tried to force my hands to his duty pistolgrip, that works best for him. And that felt really odd and uncomfortable. I hit even less with his grip version.

Next time at the range, I used his grip and the grip shown in the video and adapted it the a grip that suits me and my hands best and I hit a hole lot more, then the time befor.

I guess, that kind of proves, that not everything that works for someone else, will also work for you or me in the exact same way.

I also suppose it is pretty much the same whith the aiming.
What I do at the moment, I take an old pair of glasses, that match my right, dominat eye in the lense correction, and I put a small peace of tape on the left lense covering the area of my pupil.
That way, I can keep both eyes open but not have the double vision.
I see the sight crystal clear as it should be and the target out of focus.

My initial question was more to find out how you guys aim. One eye or both eyes and if it is possible, to train the eyes to not have double vision when aiming with both eyes, or if it is a matter as mentioned above. One person can and the other can`t.

Ken

Grip is the one thing that I had to learn to do by the book. It sounds to me like you're flinching and have an inconsistent sight picture.

Develop a good consistent sight picture, it's the basis that all of you other marksmanship falls back upon. Once you've done that, you can move on to breathing, grip, target transition, draw, et al.

[kdog]

@ matt,

thank`s for the tip.

I have been practicing my sight picture at home and that has become better.

But you are right, I am flinching, what makes my shots come in bottom left of the target.

Unfortunately it is not so easy going to th erange here in germany, because the ranges are not open to the public every day.
There are only specific days I can go to th erange on. On the other days either the range is closed or closed to public due to traing of the range/club members.
We also don`t have very many ranges around here, where we can shoot large caliber firearms. Most of the ranges will only allow airguns.
So that kind of restricts my time at the range as one can imagine.

I practice triggerpull and aiming at home in my living room using a snap cap and can`t wait untill my doorbell rings and the police want`s to know why I am playing arould whith a gun in my living room.....

But I will keep practicing here at home and whenever I get to the range.

Ken

[KellyTTE]

Originally Posted by matt g

I'm calling bull **** on this one. I've done it thousands of times. It takes hard work to develop muscle memory, but once you've developed it, it's infallible.

If you're convinced otherwise, we can meet up some place and I can prove to you that you're wrong. I can slam my left eye shut as I acquire my sight picture faster than you can acquire a sight picture with both eyes open, and I'd bet damn near anything on it.

Yeah, people think thats possible until the adrenaline dump of a two way range. Then your eyes will be peeled wide open in "fight or flight' mode. But lets just ignore the adrenaline research of recognized combat researchers like Lt.Col Dave Grossman and rely on range tricks.

http://www.policelink.com/training/a...e-or-two-eyes-

The pertinate part being:

Year after year, multiple police studies will report as high as 65% of all pistol fights are extremely close and shooting is spontaneous and instinct-driven. In these close-range shootings, raising a gun high enough to engage a sight picture often puts the pistol within the lunge-and-slap range or the lunge-and-reach of the enemy. To summarize, instinctive shooting is from the hip level, the rib cage level and chest-high, all dependant on the desperation of the moment. Simple, common sense tells you using both eyes is perfectly natural for this task. Science tells us it worked in conjunction with the reactions of an adrenaline rush.

This very subject was a quite a long topic over at lightfighter and the consensus from the people who shoot people daily is that you'll end up both eyes open anyhow and you might as well practice for it and maintain your situational awareness while you're at it.

But practice on the range and maybe 'muscle memory' will overcome thousands of years of evolutionary adrenaline response... Shooting moving targets that are shooting back takes a bit more awareness than "acquiring sight picture" on a motionless piece of paper.