[p35bhp55]

Originally Posted by Birchhatchery

no .22 ammo that bout sillyest thing ive ever heard goin shoot your food with a 9mm like sum yipy yay gagsta! a .22 is a all around great propose ammo from rabbit-deer let alone i could take down a person with it also you keep your high dollar ammo and your high caliber ammo also i take my .22 less noise lighter carry more ammo not sayin anythang wrong with havin a high caliber i do have them also but i plan on usin the .22 and the .22 magnum as much as possible

No 22!!! Dude read the post I said no bulk, I have boxes now and there are just too many misfires. I only buy different versions of CCI now, also have 2 mags, use the 30 gr poly tip in my scoped gun and regular CCI in my stainless iron sighter that catches hell and rides the tractor. One of my 5 10-22s wears the only night vision I have....For entertainment purposes only.

[p35bhp55]

Originally Posted by clr8ter

P35- I have to hit a happy medium somewhere. I realize it's a compromise, but I'd like to have some of the good stuff to carry, and some of the target stuff to practice with. Now, if someone can point to a more or less scientific study that some of the lower priced HP ammo is just as good as the more expensive stuff, I'd definitely consider it. Hornady just seems to be keeping up with the later trends, and loading purpose-built ammo.

Seriously, if you run into real trouble, he will be armored and handgun stopping power will be an oxymoron. A number of current trainers have come out recently saying they guess the 9 is ok after all due to the ability to make accurate multiple hits. What they don't come right out and say is that's because only head shots will count. The 9bp was used by cops forever and may still be. Bulk ammo sells hydrashocks by the 1000 and nobody wants to get hit with one of those. The only jewel box ammo I buy is the 10mm silvertip and that's cause it is a limited use round. I have 3 rifles that get used to 600 yards and find little difference in group size between Federal Fusion and Win. silvertips, but the price is way different. BTW I live in Bumfuked AR. 20 miles from the nearest Mickey Ds but my 600 yard range is across the back yard from where I'm sitting so I shoot a bit for fun.

[clr8ter]

MMMM, I dunno. My opinion is if SHTF, most of your threats would NOT be armored. Or at least a good # of them. If they ARE, maybe you should run & hide, and maybe live to see another day.....
So what about the tests that say common materials like denim tend to clog up regular HP and cause them to act like ball ammo?

[Brennan16]

Originally Posted by BigB

The Winchester PDX1 are nasty little rounds also, about $21 a box of 20. Haven't tried Critical defense yet, I hear they're the same as the Zombie Max just a different colored tip, and the ZM cost about 1/2 as much. Critical Duty either, but both sound intriguing.

I have the CD in 9mm and 40S&W. I have the PDX in 380.

[BigB]

I used to carry Federal Hydrashoks in 9mm, but now the PDX1 in 9mm.

(Federal on left, PDX1on right)

[Brennan16]

Firequset.com has good deals on Hydra-Shok ammo. I buy mine there. It's on sale for $27.99 a box of 50. Sometimes it goes on sale for $24.99. That's way better then the LGS at a dollar a bullet in boxes of 20. Check it out.

[bonney]

unless we are talking .22lr, and you shoot that much every few months, so you just buy it by the case. How many times do you 'think" you can MISS before you get overrun shot, hmm? If you are HITTING one shot in 10, you can only stop a dozen or so men, at night and they aint going to be stupid enough to try much of anything in daylight.

[bluez]

This is atough question since i have 4 AR's in near identical configuration to maximize training dollars.

So should I divide my ammo by 4 or just "assign" all the ammo to one rifle and consider the others "spares"?
I took the 2 values , either method would produce and averaged them to get as close to the intent of the original poll as possible.

[p35bhp55]

Originally Posted by clr8ter

MMMM, I dunno. My opinion is if SHTF, most of your threats would NOT be armored. Or at least a good # of them. If they ARE, maybe you should run & hide, and maybe live to see another day.....
So what about the tests that say common materials like denim tend to clog up regular HP and cause them to act like ball ammo?

First, I really don't believe there is any huge difference in decent HP ammo, more in marketing. Next, we just got our X mas bonus and other than people who don't already have PDRs talking about buying them the topics have been night vision, suppressors, and body armor. Rather than buying pricey handgun ammo I'll get another mag and fill it with the everyday stuff and will really consider armor if for no other reason than I seem to be shooting more with people I don't know that well and many are newbies.

[Shade]

Sorry, been busy, but have been giving this thread some thought.
Do not mean to start any pissing contests...

Originally Posted by Brennan16

We plan on bugging in as well. And if we do bug out, we'll probably only drive around the lake to the other side.

If you are leaving your house do you have a planned list on what to bring,
pre-staged supplies on a shelf ready to go? You should think about that.

Originally Posted by clr8ter

If money was no object for me, the sky would be the limit. Since it is, 1K per round needed is still a LONG way off. Does anyone here stock any quantity of higher quality ammo, or just Walmart stuff? By High Quality, I mean good HP defense loads for the handguns, and better ammo for the rifles. I have been thinking about picking up 5 boxes each of Hornady Critical Defense, in 9mm, & 40 S&W. Pretty pricey, though.

Most Military ammo at best shoot 2 MOA, most civilian ammo is better than
that. Under incoming fire your ability to hit targets is going to greatly be
reduced, I am guess very few members here have ever been in a firefight
the pucker factor is to a point you will be ****ting out your drawers for the
next week.

Originally Posted by John_Deer

No, I haven't but I don't see hollow points as a plus for a SHTF situation. While HP ammo is good for combat it sucks for hunting. I either have FMJ or JSP ammo. I hope to avoid any combat if possible.

What???

Originally Posted by TLuker

I stock premium ammo. It's premium because I loaded it.

Amen, brother, Amen!

Originally Posted by clr8ter

You think animals are the only thing that might need to get shot in SHTF? Granted, not having to shoot anything but soda cans would be preferable, but unlikely.



Since you load your own ammo, I hear you. And I'm envious. BUT, what about accuracy? In a high stress situation where you're blowing off a crapload of rounds, is premium ammo going to do you any good? Just wondering......

You do not need match grade ammo, "Premium?" I think that is more
marketing that performance. Ammo should shoot relatively clean in your
guns, minimizing residue and fouling, the is especially important in semi's.

I load Accurate 2230 in my 5.56 NATO because it is one of the cleanest
powders for the AR-15, I have found. Also I use Hodgdon Clays in my 20
and 12 gauge as well as my 9mm, .357 Mag and .45ACP for the same
reason it is very clean in all those rounds. Reliability of the weapons system
is of upmost importance.

Originally Posted by Colby

Like others, I question the need for large quantities of ammo. Holed up in your three bedroom brick ranch in suburbia won't last long. Then you've gotta leave - because there is nothing there to sustain you for a long time. Then you've gotta abandon your 500 pounds of ammo and 150 pounds of guns and take the bare minimum that doesn't slow you down physically.

That usually means 22LR rifle and a handgun. This gets down to just a few hundred rounds of 22LR and perhaps 9MM. Boots, clothes, medical supplies, food and water then make the major weight contributors - and the most important.
And, oh, by the way, don't have a heart attack because of the totally sedentary lifestyle your poor body has been living for the past 40 years... Be honest about this. Not many people living in today's America can go running around the country side on foot - searching for food, water, and safety and survive.
Let's face it, not many people can make it from the outer reaches of the typical mall parking lot to the grocery store without major troubles and huffing and puffing.

Those posters describing running out of 50 cal ammo were not referring to a SHTF scenario - but rather a government sponsored shoot-out and government supply system in place scenario that they saw or heard of - abroad --- much different from a SHTF - I'm on my own scenario.
Yes, things will be different. And hundreds of pounds of ammo is not likely to make a difference.
Physical fitness will ... and there is not much of that in these United States of America.

Where are you going to go? I do not think most country folk will tolerate
squatters much, you are not going to survive in the field long unless your
used to primative camping and you are an avid woodsman/hunter, and it
will still be tough avoiding populations, recognizing trails and sign in the field
for movement. Moving quietly and being able to spot potential enemies in
the field is not a common skill. Everyone talks about shooting animals for
food, firearm hunting is a great way to give away your position. Hauling a
bow around is not easy either. How many of you know how to trap and
snare animals for food. That knowledge will likely save you. But to trap you
have to stay in one area for a few days. If you are bugging out on foot
figure 5-7 miles at best on flat terrain and 3 days of travel out of 7. Four
days for rest and restocking food. Know what plants are edible. Moving
through unknown territory is very hard even on the healthest people. You
are better off preping your home and 3 bedroom house than bugging out to
nowhere.

Originally Posted by Colby

Shade... I completely agree with you. You're talking rural property defense. And that is excellent.
I was referring to the vast majority of people in the US - and what a SHTF would mean to them. They would become the hoards that you would be defending your property against... unfortunately. These same people you are "talking" to on this forum...

I thought about this and unless you have a place to goto that is out of the
way and secluded. You best stay where you are and build a network around
you. Even if you are suburban, a larger stockpile of ammo and be split up
and hid around the house and yard maybe even with friends and neighbors.
Buried ammo is hard to find for the raiders and scavengers. Preplan and
preparation is important. I would say that for a main weapon 5000 rounds
per person should be a viable goal. Even if you have to leave and know you
will not be back bury the ammo or destroy it.

Better to have it and not need or be concerned with hiding it or destroying it
than need it an not have it.

Originally Posted by clr8ter

When I said this, I was imagining possibly being overrun by a group of people. Close range, very high stress. Is your training going to slow you down and make every shot count? I don't know. I have never been there. Hope I never am.

As far as bugging out goes......Can I assume that most of the people who talk about this are city or heavy urban dwellers? I also imagine that those people will be leaving their residences, and looking for somewhere less populated. Like where? Around here, there is not really any sparsely populated land to speak of. You could probably bet that those couple areas will be closely guarded. And, if all of the people in the nearby cities come here, it will no longer be sparsely populated. I think it's safe to assume that you will not be the only one with your sights set on a piece of land.....or on the animals that inhabit it.

So for me, staying here would probably be it. We live in a semi-rural area. everything we have & need is here. (For now) I see no benefit to going out into the woods, and still having neighbors. If i lived in the city, my opinion would probably be more like "I'm screwed." The bigger the city, the more screwed.

And, who says cars will still be a viable mode of transportation? They need fuel, and a clear road. Would no one think to set up "tolls", or an ambush maybe?

If you wait until local groups friendly or not set up road blocks you are
already screwed, I figure most people will be in this group. Most people will
stay where they should not far to long. Most urban areas will be a mess fast
and early, with the fighting moving out to the suburbs in a few weeks but
the police and national guard will try to contain it, but they will be just as
worried about their spouses and kids and family and will only last so long as
the situation deteriorates. Vehicles will be good the first few days you will
have to git early to make anywhere and strangers will not be welcome most
places.

Originally Posted by Donn

Biggest drawback with a ton of ammo is bug out's pretty much impossible. You'll be making a stand where ever your stash is.

You need to have a defensive plan in place before it starts, how are you
going to get water, food, heat, energy, there will be no electricity, fuel,
city water or sewer. How are you going to defend your home, neighbor-
hood? Who can you trust as the starvation sets in, disease, etc.

Originally Posted by TLuker

That's when when you have to remember that making every shot count is especially important. If you miss in that situation you are in trouble. I don't think training would prepare you for that, but experience would. Very few of us have that sort of experience, but you can still gain a lot of experience hunting. While hunting you learn that if you don't make the shot count you don't go home with meat in the freezer. The more you need meat in the freezer the more pressure you have to get something.

Military training is the best they train under high stress, so you can still
think under high stress your right hunt can help but deer don't shoot back.
There are schools out there that train you for high stress defensive shooting,
Front Sight is one of them, I hear it is good.

Originally Posted by HockaLouis

I have a little bit different perspective on training vs. experience. Practical training, meaning getting off the bench, shooting multi position as well as slow, timed and rapid fire, competition, three-gun, IPSC, etc. builds muscle memory. At some point you don't think about what u r doing -- it just sorta happens.

When u r lookng BACK at your shooting performance u will know u have arrived Grasshopper...

Good start, run stairs or sprint a 100 yds then pick up your guns and try
shooting accurately, big difference.

Originally Posted by HockaLouis

OK, here're my points...

1. A gun is useless w/out ammo
2. It is better to have more ammo than you need than less
3. Buying ammo isn't consuming it -- it retains a value
4. Invest significantly in ammo

Good points all, excess ammo can be dealt with in many ways, better to have
excess ammo than not enough.

Originally Posted by BigB

Exactly! If a local militia or warlord doesn't, the military sure as h*ll will set up checkpoints of some kind!

You are way behind the curve if that is where you are at. I have been
working on a security plan that covers four sectieon around my home I have
USGS maps with houses tree lines all mapped out. I figure if and more
likely when it gets bad, most my neighbors will be staying and we will band
togeither for mutual support. I know one guy who is selling his house and
moving to ND.

Originally Posted by BigB

The plus side is I truly believe many if not most would desert rather than potentially have to fight against family! Their first priority would be to go help their families in a situation like that.

I have a tough time believing that US Military will turn on their fellow citizens.
Being a vet I have some insight on that I hope. I would have taken a Courts-Martial
over shooting on US Citizens.

Originally Posted by clr8ter

He's saying why should he be worried about listing the guns he has. As in the Govt. may read it, and come take his guns. Some people are reluctant to list what they have for this and other reasons........
.

No reason to make it easy on anybody.

Originally Posted by Squawk

My theory is that since everyone in Suburban
areas are going to be bugging out to rural areas, I'll have an entire neighbor-
hood to myself. That and my parents own a restaurant. So food shouldn't
be a problem if I have any inkling that we need to consolidate. I'm staying put.

You might want to rethink that.



Glad to see most people are thinking in the thousand of round for ammo.
I have a friend who owns threa or four handguns, a rifle and a shotgun
and thinks 100 rounds for each is great for SHTF...

I think having a good supply of ammo for your main weapons is key, if
you are married and have teens or older kids, 5K of ammo per person,
standardized on a common cartridge and if possible common weapons
platform. Your main weapon should be a semi-automatic rifle, your backup
weapon should be a semi-automatic handgun. Anything else is bonus.

Firearms and ammuntion should only be a small but important part of
your preparations. And do not just prep with supplies. The toughest
part is the strategic and tactical thinking and planning on how to best
survive. I am figuring the worse of the fighting will be in the first six to
twelve months. The societal rebuilding will start three to five years down
the road. Hopefully we can rebuild our original Republic on the other
side...