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Old 09-20-2008, 02:42 PM   #51
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Depends on the situation and training.

Self-Defense: Multiple shots at upper center of mass until the threat has stopped (i.e. dropped to the floor, ran away, or dead)

Battlefield: Multiple shots at any portion of the enemy combatant that is exposed, preferrably center of mass or head, until the enemy combatant is no longer a military threat (i.e. dead, surrendered, severely wounded).

Marksman/Sniper: Simple - one shot, one kill (i.e. either a headshot or a good center of mass shot)

All all equals up to practice, practice, practice. Keep the groups tight, that's the key. Keep pulling the trigger until the threat is gone.
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Old 09-20-2008, 04:30 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigO01 View Post
Moderators since RL mentioned posting expert tables from the book "Street Stoppers" I would remind you that the work is copy written as such posting it here without the written permission of the authors would be copy write infringement .

Better talk to Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow or risk getting your tail sued off before posting that info .
Hey sh!thead - first of all I posted the source - that's not plagiarism - secondly the data was not copyrighted by the authors - it was compiled from years of actual FBI live shooting data, then used by Sanow to write HIS article - this information is available to anyone who seeks it - why don't you worry about your "attack dog" personality and vitiolic comments to those who don't fit into your view of how the world should work...I really don't give a rat's ass what your opinion of my view's on abortion and religion are, and I don't give a damn if you worship Satan during a full moon, but if you maintain this personal "vendetta" in every thread things are gonna get real nasty real quick.
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Old 09-20-2008, 04:42 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post
RL,

THanks for the source. I was a big fan of that work when it first came out, but I think that time has revealed some flaws in the logic. I'm going back a decade or more, but the idea that we can compare gelatin performance and then look at empirical data from a limited number of known round performances to predict street performance in the future hasn't stood up to the test of time. Furthermore, I think that taking that data and using it to predict the number of shots we may need is a bit flawed as well. What percentage chance of NOT stopping the bad guy is too high?



Assuming that number came from the same source, unless I am very wrong, it represents one of two things:

A. A VERY small empirical sample
OR
B. A hypothetical percentage based on gelatin tests.

Your conclusion that 2 shots of that round should be enough still leaves you with over a 6% statistical chance of failure, if the number is right to begin with (75% stops of the leftover 25% of failures from the first shot....). That's too high for me..... even if it weren't a guess.

I still think that any attempt to predict how many shots you will fire is futile and borderline reckless. Any training to shoot a magic pattern (which is a circus trick at best... try 2 Body, 1 head consistently in realistic force-on-force and let me know how it works out.) is in an even more delusional state.

Picture this: "I had more bullets, but I stopped shooting and then the bad guy killed me/my wife/my kid/my partner while I was figuring out what to do next."

"Multiple shots into the high center chest (when available, which it usually is) until you have recognized that the threat has ceased" with whatever gun/ammo you've got, will continue to be what I recommend to students and what I plan for myself.

Rob - the article states
Quote:
" there are no such things as 'magic bullets'. And they don't "all fall to hardball'. However a few loads in a few calibers produce a one-shot stop 94 to 96% of the time based on a database of more than 500 shootings per load. That is as good as it gets for a handgun load"
I don't consider 500 documented shootings (PER LOAD) to be a "VERY small empirical data", on the contrary I would imagine it is one of the most comprehensive set of actual shootings ever compiled. I am not claiming emphatically that a one-shot stop is a given - it is a damned good indication of the potential lethality of a particular load however. Obviously two shots is better, but when data supports the fact that a one-shot stop has been achieved, that in and of itself is a confidence-builder in the choice of load. In other words, I would rather have a magazine full of GlazerBlues than ball ammo, for combat -distance use in warm weather.

Even if the data is 12 years old, the effectiveness of a particular load does NOT diminish over time. I would trust my life to, and put my faith in, any of the loads listed for the calibers I carry. I have always practiced double tap to center mass, and think it ridiculous that people can recommend "head shots' or shots to any small target in a high stress situation. Obviously there are anomoly's in life, but since the data has been extensively tested in real life shootings, this trumps "opinions and educated "guesses" by a wide margin. Chances are that no one reading this will ever have to draw their weapon in a self-defense scenario, but if that situation should arise, I think it provides comfort and confidence knowing that your choice of ammo is backed by real-life data.
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Old 09-20-2008, 06:25 PM   #54
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I also think this question is sometimes answered with a little more effort than need be.

Make your shot placement center-of-mass. If you don't know what that is, it's the human body's upper torso (i.e. the bottom of the neck, down to the belly button).

Regardless of caliber of weapon you are using, if you keep putting multiple rounds in that area of the body, you WILL cause the aggressor great harm, which should stop the threat to you. Do not stop pulling the trigger until your adversary is either dead, parlyzed, or a screaming pile of meat on the ground.

Keep it simple, folks...lol.
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Old 09-20-2008, 07:48 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by RL357Mag View Post
Hey sh!thead - first of all I posted the source - that's not plagiarism - secondly the data was not copyrighted by the authors - it was compiled from years of actual FBI live shooting data, then used by Sanow to write HIS article - this information is available to anyone who seeks it - why don't you worry about your "attack dog" personality and vitiolic comments to those who don't fit into your view of how the world should work...I really don't give a rat's ass what your opinion of my view's on abortion and religion are, and I don't give a damn if you worship Satan during a full moon, but if you maintain this personal "vendetta" in every thread things are gonna get real nasty real quick.
Man you really are a wacked out frothing at the mouth nut case aren't you ?

It doesn't matter who was going to post it , you , JD , Robo , anyone , all I was doing was reminding the Mods and the sites owner that they need to make sure all of their legal I's were dotted and T's crossed with anything that is or may be copywritten . If they don't this site that you of all people love to come on an shove your beliefs on and insult people without even comprehending what they're saying would go away after a law suit . Or the owner could loose a good chunk of his/her hard earned money if not careful .

The antis are certainly right , some people shouldn't have guns and you're one of them . You can't even take the time to stop and think and comprehend the written word before going off on a diatribe of your religious based insults so I seriously doubt you could understand the difference in situations that call for the legal use of deadly force in a split second as it might unfold in front of you and those that do not .

I think you're about a half a step from the being in the same mental state as the mass murders that go to schools these days .
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Old 09-20-2008, 08:27 PM   #56
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Guys, everyone knows that I'm all for discussions, but when the replies start off like this:

Quote:
Hey sh!thead....
....this is no longer a discussion.


Be safe. Don't believe everything you read... but some you might be interested in reading this:

Article related to Critical Thinking and training I did for Breach-Bang-Clear.

PLEASE start a new thread if you wish to discuss that article. I'm out of this one.
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Old 09-20-2008, 08:36 PM   #57
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Rob - I apologize. It would appear a personal battle has spilled over into this thread.

While not directed at you personally, it would appear that it has made normal conversation ineffective at this time.

I would hope that you would continue visiting this website as your reputation and your expertise is indeed something that we, most of the members of this forum, would definitely like to continue reading your contributions.

I apologize again for the spill over.

JD
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