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Old 09-17-2008, 12:20 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by RL357Mag View Post
Thanks JD - I already quoted the source above. A couple of months ago I requested help in how to post a table showing these stats at a glance - the table contained data outlining the best Frangibles vs. the Best JHP ammo for loads ranging from the .25 ACP to the .45 ACP. It would have been a good thing for members to print because it showed velocity, penetration, actual and estimated one-shot stops for Frangible and JHP in each caliber. But Admin never responded and I gave up!
Thanks RL - You the Man!

I will see if I can find out for you. I don't know how to do it either...

JD
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Old 09-17-2008, 12:28 AM   #42
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Thanks RL - You the Man!

I will see if I can find out for you. I don't know how to do it either...

JD
Thanks JD - I actually photographed the table and tried posting it, but the print was too fine and became unreadable..
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Old 09-17-2008, 01:37 AM   #43
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You can actually get all three volumes by MR. Sanow and his co-author. Together they have more knowledge than most of us can ever dream. The best place to get these books is from paladin press. They are definitely a must read.

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Old 09-17-2008, 04:31 AM   #44
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Hate to tell you friend but a gunfight/fistfight/mugging ain't a football game , your adversary isn't trying to run 50 yards to score a touchdown he'll be trying to cut/shoot/stomp/punch/club you to kill you .

Knocking someone down isn't even close to same thing as disabling them if it was cops wouldn't practice firing their gun while laying on their backs shooting between and over their feet and head .

Just because someone falls no matter how hard to the ground doesn't mean they will lose control of a weapon in their hand and it certainly doesn't mean a second or third unseen weapon in their belt or a holster is going to be knocked loose out of their reach .

Even when faced with only a knife threat putting a person on the ground means next to nothing if he is close enough to throw said knife at you "A skill some folks still practice" .

After getting to know some of those guys who are into primitive hunting and all the mountain man thing I can tell you for a fact if you knocked one of them to the ground you better pray their "Hawk" isn't tucked in their belt because if it is and you think breaking their pelvic girdle will save you , you will find out how wrong you are when that thing splits your head wide open .

As far as guns go you just put an armed man in the most steady shooting position he can be in , it's called Prone , ya know the ones snipers use to make those 1/4 mile shots and it can be used with a handgun too .

I suggest you seriously rethink your position on all of this because this kind of advice on a public forum will get people killed and if used and not articulated correctly could land you in jail for shooting when your life wasn't in danger of immanent death a standard almost universally required to fire a gun at someone .

It might be fun to fantasize about shooting someone , stopping the threat and never really putting them in danger of dying but fact is you might as well try the Lone Ranger shoot the gun out of their hand BS as a pelvic girdle shot .

They don't call it deadly force for nothing you know !
I guess I should have used the phrase "center mass". Oh, and "follow-up shots". I wasn't suggesting trying to circumcise an armed attacker!
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Old 09-17-2008, 05:38 AM   #45
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You can actually get all three volumes by MR. Sanow and his co-author. Together they have more knowledge than most of us can ever dream. The best place to get these books is from paladin press. They are definitely a must read.
True but they're cheaper from the Authors website by about $14 or so each .

www.stoppingpower.net

is Evan Marshall's web site with a forum for discussion .

If you spend much time there at all you will quickly learn that Evan considers his work out dated and he nor anyone else is trying to keep up with a study of the effectiveness of various rounds .

He has stated many times though that for his personal carry weapons he uses and suggests the new all copper bullet loads .

They also sell a fairly wide variety of books on related subjects of interest to many gun owners .

If you join his forum read the rules and don't break them or he'll show you the door pronto , this was explained to me just for posting a few links to sites that explained the correct maintenance and troubleshooting on a 1911 and forget any type of cursing he wont tolerate it .
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Old 09-17-2008, 06:48 AM   #46
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The Mozambique Drill---a quick double-tap to center-of-mass, immediately followed by a shot to the head.

Shot placement is indeed the most important thing, but NOT the only thing. If shot placement was all that mattered, LEO's would all be carrying .22's.

The vast majority of handgun self-defense experts recommend a minimum of 9mm for semis, and .38 Special for revolvers. Hollow points, of course. Though with a large caliber weapon like the .45, I wouldn't worry if all I had was FMJ.

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Old 09-17-2008, 08:13 AM   #47
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Moderators since RL mentioned posting expert tables from the book "Street Stoppers" I would remind you that the work is copy written as such posting it here without the written permission of the authors would be copy write infringement .

Better talk to Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow or risk getting your tail sued off before posting that info .

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Old 09-17-2008, 02:43 PM   #48
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Moderators since RL mentioned posting expert tables from the book "Street Stoppers" I would remind you that the work is copy written as such posting it here without the written permission of the authors would be copy write infringement .

Better talk to Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow or risk getting your tail sued off before posting that info .
It's being discussed as well. Nothing is going to be blatantly plagerized. This isn't the Joe Biden papers.

JD
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Old 09-20-2008, 02:38 PM   #49
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RL,

THanks for the source. I was a big fan of that work when it first came out, but I think that time has revealed some flaws in the logic. I'm going back a decade or more, but the idea that we can compare gelatin performance and then look at empirical data from a limited number of known round performances to predict street performance in the future hasn't stood up to the test of time. Furthermore, I think that taking that data and using it to predict the number of shots we may need is a bit flawed as well. What percentage chance of NOT stopping the bad guy is too high?

Quote:
...ballistics tests that indicate even a .380 with 70gr. Glaser ammo will provide one shot stops 75% of the time...
Assuming that number came from the same source, unless I am very wrong, it represents one of two things:

A. A VERY small empirical sample
OR
B. A hypothetical percentage based on gelatin tests.

Your conclusion that 2 shots of that round should be enough still leaves you with over a 6% statistical chance of failure, if the number is right to begin with (75% stops of the leftover 25% of failures from the first shot....). That's too high for me..... even if it weren't a guess.

I still think that any attempt to predict how many shots you will fire is futile and borderline reckless. Any training to shoot a magic pattern (which is a circus trick at best... try 2 Body, 1 head consistently in realistic force-on-force and let me know how it works out.) is in an even more delusional state.

Picture this: "I had more bullets, but I stopped shooting and then the bad guy killed me/my wife/my kid/my partner while I was figuring out what to do next."

"Multiple shots into the high center chest (when available, which it usually is) until you have recognized that the threat has ceased" with whatever gun/ammo you've got, will continue to be what I recommend to students and what I plan for myself.
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Last edited by Rob Pincus; 09-20-2008 at 02:45 PM. Reason: bad math.... fixed it....
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Old 09-20-2008, 03:23 PM   #50
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RL,
"Multiple shots into the high center chest (when available, which it usually is) until you have recognized that the threat has ceased"
thats exactly what i was taught in military training, except in sniper school it's ONE SHOT, ONE KILL
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