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Old 08-31-2008, 10:00 PM   #31
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2 shot to the chest is enough.
Once again we have someone speaking in absolutes when in any fight there are none much less a gunfight .

If you could raise the dead and brought back the FBI agents that died in Miami a couple of decades ago they would probably slap any one who made the above statement stupid .

A perp took 2+ shots to the chest yet he continued on killing armed agents that were still shooting him and he was on ZERO drugs other than the drugs that are naturally in every humans body mainly Adrenalin .

How will you know your 2 shots even hit your attacker ?

Blood isn't going to come blowing out especially of an ENTRANCE wound unless the bullet hits a major artery and even if it did you would have to take into consideration your recognition and then reaction time to start firing again if you missed when you just could have continued firing in the first place .

I don't care if you're a civilian at home in the street or at work or a LEO you need to all understand something WE are all legally obligated to see and identify a deadly threat and then make the decision to counter it with force of our own .

We are not acting we are REACTING to the already established deadly threat and that puts us behind in the game from the word GO . This is what separates us from the animals that prey on us , we follow the law they don't !!

Making assumptions that your magic super zapper ammo or even your shot placement is going to do a one or even two shot knock em down and out of the fight is an assumption that will get you killed more times than not .

We're lucky in the fact that most criminals are cowards no matter what garbage comes out of their mouths and when push comes to shove they will run or surrender in a LEO's case . When they don't you are honestly dealing with a human predator and it will have every intention of killing you and enjoy doing it .
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Old 09-07-2008, 03:02 AM   #32
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The standard response taught by just about every agency is a double-tap to center of mass. I haven't heard any stats about anyone continuing to pose a threat with two bullets in their chest. Of course there's ALWAYS going to be an exception, but it is NOT the norm.
There is plenty of shooting data available, and ballistics tests that indicate even a .380 with 70gr. Glaser ammo will provide one shot stops 75% of the time - that's a shot to the chest, not the head. So two shots should get the job done - if it doesn't, I still have 5 more follow-up shots!

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Old 09-10-2008, 02:05 PM   #33
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RL357,

Sources for those numbers and claims, please?


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All,

As noted above, we recommend not only the somewhat obvious advice of shooting until you recognize that your threat has stopped, we also recommend a training methodology that does not establish a pattern. While you are running your square range drills, you should shoot a different number of rounds (2 or 3 is what we usually do in classes, with longer strings of fire thrown in occasionally for a more realistic exposure to sustained recoil management) in a a somewhat random combination throughout your drills. Picture a threat, picture it stopping.

Randomized reactive targets that will after some unknown number of good hits are great for realistic training.

-RJP

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Old 09-10-2008, 04:10 PM   #34
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Rob - Thank you for continuing to monitor the site and weigh in upon occassion, I know that you are busy.

Would you be willing to tell the members what weapon & caliber you carry in your day to day duties?

I believe when I met you up at Valhalla you were filming for the NRA at the time and were carrying an XD, or so I thought.

Many thanks and best of luck with ICE.

JD

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Old 09-10-2008, 05:33 PM   #35
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Thanks, man... I do try to monitor the major forums from time to time......

I.C.E. is incredibly busy ad we've established some Regional Representatives to keep up with demand for Combat Focus Shooting and other courses.

In the DVDs, I try to use a variety of firearms... I've used Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, 1911s and probably 2 or 3 other brands. We don't have sponsors and, regardless of my personal preferences, students/viewers will have a variety of tools with which to practice the recommended techniques.

Honestly, my main carry gun is a J-frame .38 (S&W 642). Convenience, low threat profile, reliability. All handguns are a compromise, I find myself willing to compromise more lately. Living in a little ski village in Colorado for 5 years certainly contributed to that. Now that I am back near the big city, I have gotten back into carry a semi-auto more often.
If I am doing EP work or have other reason to carry "more gun", I still go to my Glock 23...

That said, when people ask my what gun they should carry, caliber is the last concern. Start with the most efficient designs you an find (ie- no extra levers/buttons, etc). Find a gun that fits and that you can shoot well. Make sure that you can carry it and store it conveniently. Then get into the concerns/compromises of caliber in terms of recoil management and power/capacity.

Generally, I agree with the ideas expressed in this thread that shot placement AND volume are going to mean more than caliber choice in most cases.


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Old 09-10-2008, 07:35 PM   #36
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Thank you Rob for that candid information & taking the time to address the question.

There you have the facts from one of the main men in firearm's training today guys.

Shot placement AND volume of fire to suppress the threat, not one big round or the magic double tap.

Many Thanks to Rob Pincus of I.C.E. Training for taking the time to address the issue with us. I would highly recommend his book to anyone interested in this very effective way to defend yourself in the real world.



JD

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Old 09-16-2008, 05:37 PM   #37
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Default Ongoing Debate

First off, I have to give Big001 kudos for bringing up the infamous Miami shootout. That was one of the greatest tragedies in law enforcement history and one of the many case histories that I studied while attending Executive Security International in Aspen.
Adrenalin is the body's natural PCP, for lack of a better analogy. Case studies show that zombies have taken multiple hits, no matter what the caliber, and kept fighting, sometimes killing the defender before collapsing due to loss of blood pressure. Not only did adrenalin play a huge roll in the Miami incident. But paired with the flawed training techniques of the agents, it proved to be catastrophic.
Regarding Gestapo Hunter's fallacy of shooting someone into their body armor and knocking them on their can. Just review the footage of the North Hollywood Shootout. A little known fact is that the amount of force a target will feel from bullet impact, no matter what caliber, is the same or less that the shooter will feel in the form of recoil after the trigger is pulled.
Addressing the ammo issue. Glaser Safety Slugs are one of my favorite rounds. They deliver good energy, create devastating wounds and for the most part do not penetrate through walls or ricochet. But their use has limitations. I keep my nightstand gun (S&W model 642LS) loaded with Glaser Blues. I will carry them when i'm in a crowded atmosphere or anywhere in the summertime. They are not a good wintertime round as heavy clothing such as a leather or canvas coat or just multiple layers of clothing stand a good chance of defeating the round (still wouldn't want to risk getting hit with one). My suggestion would be to experiment with different types of ammo. You can mix and match to suit your perceived needs as i do or you can find one good round and stick with it. My two favorite rounds are the hornady TAP round in any caliber and a lesser known round called Powermax. You can order Powermax from the Glaser website. In .45 cal. the 230 grain Powermax round is screaming at 1200 f.p.s. Coupled with the huge gold dot hollow point, it makes for one of the most awesome rounds I have ever shot.

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Old 09-16-2008, 11:07 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post
RL357,

Sources for those numbers and claims, please?


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-RJP
No problem Rob - stats were compiled from a data base of over 500 shootings per load ( I have included a write-up in Knowledge Base comprising 15 calibers ranging from .22 to .45) and found in an article in 1996 issue of Gun's and Ammo by Ed Sanow entiltled "Street Stoppers". Hope this helps you.
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:11 PM   #39
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RL - Appreciate that, thank you.

JD

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Old 09-16-2008, 11:19 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
RL - Appreciate that, thank you.

JD

Thanks JD - I already quoted the source above. A couple of months ago I requested help in how to post a table showing these stats at a glance - the table contained data outlining the best Frangibles vs. the Best JHP ammo for loads ranging from the .25 ACP to the .45 ACP. It would have been a good thing for members to print because it showed velocity, penetration, actual and estimated one-shot stops for Frangible and JHP in each caliber. But Admin never responded and I gave up!
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Last edited by Dillinger; 09-17-2008 at 01:04 AM.
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