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Old 08-24-2008, 09:05 AM   #21
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Uh uh , I so love it when one comes in a forum offers crap advice and when called on it starts backpedaling trying to save his crap advice .

chopkick Yes indeed lets examine what you said in your original post and let's even compare it to your second round of rambling .

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The pelvic girdle is a very large target and if shattered will immediately collapse the subject ending the threat.
Notice you said THE THREAT not a knife threat or a club threat THE THREAT which implies all types of threats including gun threats and then you repeat this at the end of the post with your little football didy .

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In football if you take out the runner's legs you immediately stop him and end the threat of him scoring. Folks, the same goes for ending a threat in the street.
Once again A THREAT not a knife threat meaning all threats shall be neutralized with your Pelvic girdle hit .

Now lets examine your knowledge of training , there is NO 21 foot rule . What there is is a drill that a experience Police officer "Sergeant Dennis Tueller" inspired to demonstrate the fact that conventional thinking as to at what distances a person is a deadly threat when armed with a weapon other than a firearm due to the reaction time needed for a uniformed office to draw his duty weapon is completely false . Prior to Tuellers experiment it was an often excepted "Fact" that a officer/person with a gun was in no danger from a person with a knife or even a club beyond contact distance of said weapon regardless of where the gun was on the officer .

The drill itself is flexible depending on factors such as the type of holster one uses as modern retention holsters are much slower to draw from one level of training etc because it is more of a reaction time demonstration than any type of Rule .

In all the articles I have read on the drill I have never seen a professional suggest a pelvic girdle shot be attempted and justly so .

You see while you state the ineffectiveness of a COM hit you are once again thinking this pelvic girdle is something out a of a magic show . In the drill most shots are fired when an assailant is right on top of the intended victim , the laws of physics aren't going to change with your Pelvic girdle hit .

A charging assailants momentum is going to carry him to the point of contact distance and even if your shots have achieved 100% paralysis below the waist nothing is going to prevent him from slashing or stabbing you with a knife and if he grabs hold of you and takes you down with him you will be stabbed and or slashed repeatedly . At least with a couple of well placed COM hits his attack may end due to blood loss with the girdle hit's you suggest your life now depends on your skills at hand to hand combat laying on the ground with perhaps your attacker on top of you because the attacker will most certainly be trying to take your gun away and still stabbing and slashing with his knife .

Would you now suggest an ineffective COM shot or two or will you still try for your magic Pelvic girdle again ?

Of course all of this supposes it was indeed a knife as stated in your original post you didn't specify you simply said THE THREAT .

Your dismissal of the effectiveness of COM shots is based purely on the performance of certain hollow point ammunition and their lack of penetration , there are several choices of defensive ammo , many penetrate considerably deeper than others putting the upper spinal column within easy reach of a frontal shot . I personally keep my 45's loaded with 200 grain semiwadcutter bullets , these will out penetrate almost all of the hollow points being touted for self defense .

As to your "Get the hell out of Dodge" goes you have just used deadly force regardless of where you intended to hit your attacker and you better stay put and summon the police , running from the scene will only make you appear guilty of a crime instead of a justifyable self defense shooting .

I suggest you go to "The Police Policy Studies Council" website and do a little reading on the Tueller drill and try and find any mention of a pelvic girdle shot to end a threat .


Go here and click on Staff Views then find Tueller at the bottom .

www.theppsc.org
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Old 08-24-2008, 04:49 PM   #22
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Touch'e sir. Very nice rebuttal. As far as me pedaling crap, there are many different schools of thought on self defense and shot placement. If you don't agree you shouldn't call it crap? And the 21 ft. rule is real. Like I said, just google it. Yes, when I went through my training, they drilled us constantly on the Mozambique Drill (two rounds center mass and one round in the head). It is a very effected training technique. And it is a part of our yearly qualification. In my opinion, I would rather take an immediate and probable incapacitating shot rather than one in which i have to wait for a bleedout. And by incapacitating I mean the zombie's physical movement in my direction. And as far as getting the hell out of dodge? I believe I stated my position, "depending on the circumstances at the time". I realize the laws concerning the use of deadly force. If it is a situation where I had to defend against an attacker and shot him, I would take cover and call law enforcement of course. Afterall, we are still somewhat civilized. If it is during civil unrest or societal breakdown such as the Rodney King riots or the chaos that followed hurricane Katrina, sorry no sympathy for the devil. But regardless of our differences of opinion, both of us would probably empty our weapons in his direction in a matter of just a couple of seconds. With all of the variables that one would have to consider such as drugs and alcohol, mental capacity, terrain, weather, and the time of day, there is no magic bullet. But one also has to consider the psychological trauma one might experience after being hit. Even if the shot is not life threatening, the bad guy may psychologically incapacitate himself. Either way it goes down, it's not going to be pretty. I hope to god that I never have to pull the trigger on anyone but if I do I have to live or die with the choice and outcome of my shot placement.
As far as ammo goes, I guess we can at least agree on the caliber. For me the .45 is the best. I carry Hornady 200 grain TAP's in my Kimber. http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif
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Old 08-24-2008, 06:41 PM   #23
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Man it would sure be nice if your posts weren't one continuous sentence .

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Old 08-24-2008, 06:46 PM   #24
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Sorry Big001. Never was an ace at grammar.

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Old 08-24-2008, 08:22 PM   #25
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chopkick right here

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It is a very effected training technique. And it is a part of our yearly qualification.
you're insinuated you're a LEO or armed security of some kind and if so and you have a modern retention holster you better get that 21 Rule crap out of your head .

When Tueller came up with it retention holsters were in their infancy and for the most part cops wore a simple thumb snap .

I've discussed this with enough LEO friends and had them show me how fast they could draw . With the holsters cops around here wear and have been wearing for over a decade the weapon is first pushed down and foreward then it is pulled up and foreward out of the rig this makes the pure draw time more like 2 seconds so your RULE just became 25+ feet not 21 and then reaction time has to be figured in .

Unless you work for a department that issues Fobus brand holsters 21 feet is to close to begin your draw at and even with a fobus your opponent will be on top of you before you get a shot off .
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Old 08-24-2008, 08:56 PM   #26
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Yessir, that is very true. At 21 ft. you have very little time to get a shot off, let alone choose a target as small as a bobbing and weaving head or a major artery. That is my whole argument.
I am an armed security officer contracted with the Dept. of Homeland Security. I work in a very large and crowded atmosphere and if I or my partners are ever forced to use our weapons it will definitely be at close range.
Once a year we have to qualify on the range with I.C.E./F.P.S. Every part of our shoot is timed from a holstered weapon at various distances from 1 yard out to 25 yards utilizing cover at the 25 yard mark. We go through the same exact shoot that our I.C.E. counterparts go through.
The holsters that we carry have a thumb break snap as well as a small lever just below the snap that has to be pressed in order to release the weapon. Took some getting used to but now it's a learned response.
We carry the Glock 19 9mm loaded with Winchester 124 grain bonded hollow point ammo.
My job doesn't make me an expert Big001. Those are just my thoughts and preferences that I have acquired throughout the years I have been shooting and training.
You are definitely a formidable sparring partner.

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Old 08-25-2008, 06:08 AM   #27
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chopkick I'm not here to spar with you or anyone else , I am here to enjoy reading the experiences and thoughts of others and share what little knowledge I have gathered in my 45 years including that of some very unpleasant encounters in the hope it may help keep a few good but otherwise uninformed people alive .

I've never had any of the formal training you and many others have but I have been shooting rifles for 39 years and pistols for 32 years .

I've known LEO's all my life and had spoken to and shot with and been taught by some of them some have been with TAC units and one was as the TO for his department sent to train under some of the Experts including Massad Ayoob , The S&W academy and others well over a decade ago .

I have been reading their works for probably longer than you have been alive and I probably read the first National publications on things like the Tueller and Mozambique drills as I have subscribed to many of the magazines over the years .

While you're correct in saying that any small target is going to be almost imposable to hit you still can't seem to understand the folly of a pelvic girdle shot VS a COM shot .

A COM shot is a much higher percentage shot simply for the fact that you are firing into the center mass of so many vital organs , Heart , Lungs and if a high shot trachea , jugular and even spine with enough penetration .Also a fast moving quick expanding hollow point when fired into the neck region can cause paralysis simply due to energy transfer to the spine .

If you miss high with the Girdle you can pass through areas that will by no means cause a mortal wound , you could also completely miss between a charging opponents legs , then there is the the factor of body fat that if an opponent has a high enough of a percentage your hollow point will be stopped in layers of blubber or if in extremely good physical condition very tough muscle .

As you well know there are no absolutes in a gunfight or any fight so nothing is written in stone and there are no RULES all you can do is gamble you just have to be smart and play the highest percentage bet you can and hope it works out .

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Old 08-31-2008, 08:19 PM   #28
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2 shot to the chest is enough. and dont worry about body armor trust me kevlar is pretty hard to come by for a civilian. even if they are wearing kevlar the force of the round should shake them up or knock them on their can. What round you use is up to you i perfer glaser saftey rounds so my shots wont penetrate and hit innocent people

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Old 08-31-2008, 08:31 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gestapo Hunter View Post
2 shot to the chest is enough. and dont worry about body armor trust me kevlar is pretty hard to come by for a civilian. even if they are wearing kevlar the force of the round should shake them up or knock them on their can. What round you use is up to you i perfer glaser saftey rounds so my shots wont penetrate and hit innocent people

Um. I am going to go with "Nuh-Uh" on that post.

Body armor is pretty available to the common man here in the states. Outside of that, two shots is only enough if the first one puts the threat down.

Read up on Combat Focus - Once a threat is identified, you shoot until that threat has been negated. Rob Pincus himself joined up to post here on just this topic.

JD
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Old 08-31-2008, 08:43 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gestapo Hunter View Post
2 shot to the chest is enough. and dont worry about body armor trust me kevlar is pretty hard to come by for a civilian. even if they are wearing kevlar the force of the round should shake them up or knock them on their can. What round you use is up to you i perfer glaser saftey rounds so my shots wont penetrate and hit innocent people
No, two shots to the chest is not enough. Telling yourself to have a rule as to how many times to shoot is a very poor discipline. Not spray and pray mind you, but shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.

Have you ever seen someone shot? Much less with body armor on? They don't get shaken up and certainly don't get knocked on their butt. At best they crumple into a heap, at worst they kick your ass and shoot you with your own gun because you have "two shots to the chest" is enough ingrained into your head. If you're bored and morbid, look up Mark Coates. He was a Florida Highway Patrolman who was murdered by Richard Blackburn. Coates shot Blackburn and made five solid hits with a 357 magnum. Not only did Blackburn shoot back, he killed the Trooper and survived.

I am not trying to sound like a jerk but there is a lot more to this than the Guns N Ammo version two to the chest and one to the head and game over philosophy. It's static and ever changing. Training box drills and stringing pelvis shots is to practice options and be familiar with what it looks like. I know guys that can drill a fist size hole with infinite rounds from a 92F at 35 yards, but can't hit high center mass unless it has a black circle on it. That is what spawned the pelvic girdle shots and box drills mentioned earlier, diversity in training. That's what started this back and forth between Big0o1 and chopkick in the first place I think.
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