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Old 05-31-2008, 11:32 PM   #11
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I have trust in my .45acp's and .357's to penetrate and strike vital areas of the human body. People should realize that they have to do their part to have a good outcome. Shot placement is critical. Also understand, if a dangerous, life threatening situation presents itself, stress on the human body will effect your shooting. don't think that because you shoot at stationary pie plates at 15 yards that you'll be able to shoot that well in a violent encounter with people actually shooting back. Look at police. They are required to qualify, hitting a standard man sized target 80% of the time minimum. In real life shooting incidents, police hit more like 25%.

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Old 05-31-2008, 11:56 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by coltm4 View Post
i think you described what i was trying to say a whole lot better. i'm a big fan of .45 ACP as well unfortunately my dept. uses 9mm. however i use winchester ranger T-series in my off duty and duty weapons. i heard the ranger t-series in .45 perform really well. they're just hard to get.
You know, for a New York cop, you're unusually well-informed! (I'm still getting even for that last ticket.)

Yes, the Ranger T's are an excellent round - Probably, best-of-breed. If you're concerned about shooting through barricades or auto bodies, then, Ranger Bonded is the way to go. Either way, though, you can't go wrong!

One of the principal reasons I use the 45 acp ain't just for the nice big slugs; it's because the recoil impulse is longer (and, yes, heavier) than most of the other centerfire combat pistol rounds. This gives me greater control over my front sight and less, 'air time' to have to deal with between shots.

A lot of shooters are afraid of 45 acp recoil. After a lifetime of doing this I've had exactly the opposite experience! Familiarity is everything; and, I'll take heavy and slow over fast and snappy every time! Like so many other things in life, it's all about how you train and what you teach yourself to get used to!
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Old 06-03-2008, 09:54 PM   #13
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Default Very good info!

I think everyone who carries should have a course in human anatomy. Even hunters check the animal's anatomy out to know what to shoot at. Sometimes I think people are a little flippant at how serious the concept of killing in self defense is. I am glad to read the depth of study and knowledge some take in this. Great job guys!

Hollyweird has hardly ever properly displayed correct shooting techniques yet people own and carry firearms and think if they do it like the movies things will be just like the big weird screen.

As to my caliber I use the 9 x 23 Winchester now with a 124 grain Speer Gold Dot doing 1,495 fps out of my 1911 Colt. It gives me 357 Mag performance and is extremely accurate. I like it a bit better than the 45ACP (I still love the 45ACP) in my case simply because out in in NM tactical shots can get a little long and the flat trajectory helps this old man make some nice long range hits with a semi-auto.

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Old 06-04-2008, 12:36 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by G21.45 View Post
You know, for a New York cop, you're unusually well-informed! (I'm still getting even for that last ticket.)

Yes, the Ranger T's are an excellent round - Probably, best-of-breed. If you're concerned about shooting through barricades or auto bodies, then, Ranger Bonded is the way to go. Either way, though, you can't go wrong!

One of the principal reasons I use the 45 acp ain't just for the nice big slugs; it's because the recoil impulse is longer (and, yes, heavier) than most of the other centerfire combat pistol rounds. This gives me greater control over my front sight and less, 'air time' to have to deal with between shots.

A lot of shooters are afraid of 45 acp recoil. After a lifetime of doing this I've had exactly the opposite experience! Familiarity is everything; and, I'll take heavy and slow over fast and snappy every time! Like so many other things in life, it's all about how you train and what you teach yourself to get used to!
i was stationed at fort Bragg NC for a couple of years while in the army. some of that southern culture rubbed off on me for the better. you think it would be good to have a couple of bonded rounds in my mag mixed with t-series? i wish i could carry my HK USP .45!!! oh yea, i'm not a big ticket writer. my partner and i like to get out of patrol car walk around and actually talk to people. the law abiding people tend to like it and we get some good arrests as a result. my idea of being a cop (when i was a kid) was running after bad guys, not writing tickets.
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Old 06-04-2008, 02:20 AM   #15
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.... Do you think it would be good to have a couple of bonded rounds in my mag mixed with t-series?
Because of our long winters and the heavy garments people wear during cold weather, I mix FMJ and JHP rounds inside my own wintertime magazines.

We, also, had a shooting incident in Hazleton, PA, two years ago where the perp engaged the responding officers in a prolonged handgun battle. He was wearing a down vest; and, even though, he took an incredible 17 hits from the officer's G-22 Glocks, (wide-mouthed 165 grain Gold Dots) he remained on his feet and continued to fight until a late arriving backup officer finally knocked him down with two shots from a 5.56mm patrol rifle.

At the autopsy, the county coroner remarked that she was surprised to find feathers in many of the bullet wounds - All, but two of which, (the last two!) failed to penetrate more than about 1/2 inch. No wonder he kept on firing his weapon!

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.... oh yea, i'm not a big ticket writer. my partner and i like to get out of patrol car walk around and actually talk to people. the law abiding people tend to like it and we get some good arrests as a result. my idea of being a cop (when i was a kid) was running after bad guys, not writing tickets.
First, I was just kidding! Second, my compliments. That's the correct, good old fashioned, 'Officer in the neighborhood' way of doing your job.
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Old 06-04-2008, 03:30 AM   #16
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A head shot is the deadliest shot, obviously. Now you have to consider the odds of hitting it.
A moving human can bob and weave using his head and shoulders, but he can't do that with his hips (Any football player will tell you the same thing.)
Shoot for the gut and then work upward.

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Old 08-23-2008, 04:27 AM   #17
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Gorknoids you are right on in your assessment. Sure a headshot or a round through the heart would be ideal but unrealistic in a fast paced self defense situation. And it is ludicrous to even talk about a shot into the femoral or carotid arteries (sorry) unless you are a very experienced sniper. The pelvic girdle is a very large target and if shattered will immediately collpse the subject ending the threat.
Oh, don't get me wrong. It's nice to sit around and fantasize about ending a conflict with a well placed shot into the "Sweet Spot" (pharyngeal cavity). But realistically you want to stop the threat as qiuick as you can and get the hell out of Dodge. In football if you take out the runner's legs you immediately stop him and end the threat of him scoring. Folks, the same goes for ending a threat in the street.

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Old 08-23-2008, 11:30 AM   #18
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Oh, don't get me wrong. It's nice to sit around and fantasize about ending a conflict with a well placed shot into the "Sweet Spot" (pharyngeal cavity). But realistically you want to stop the threat as quick as you can and get the hell out of Dodge. In football if you take out the runner's legs you immediately stop him and end the threat of him scoring. Folks, the same goes for ending a threat in the street.
Hate to tell you friend but a gunfight/fistfight/mugging ain't a football game , your adversary isn't trying to run 50 yards to score a touchdown he'll be trying to cut/shoot/stomp/punch/club you to kill you .

Knocking someone down isn't even close to same thing as disabling them if it was cops wouldn't practice firing their gun while laying on their backs shooting between and over their feet and head .

Just because someone falls no matter how hard to the ground doesn't mean they will lose control of a weapon in their hand and it certainly doesn't mean a second or third unseen weapon in their belt or a holster is going to be knocked loose out of their reach .

Even when faced with only a knife threat putting a person on the ground means next to nothing if he is close enough to throw said knife at you "A skill some folks still practice" .

After getting to know some of those guys who are into primitive hunting and all the mountain man thing I can tell you for a fact if you knocked one of them to the ground you better pray their "Hawk" isn't tucked in their belt because if it is and you think breaking their pelvic girdle will save you , you will find out how wrong you are when that thing splits your head wide open .

As far as guns go you just put an armed man in the most steady shooting position he can be in , it's called Prone , ya know the ones snipers use to make those 1/4 mile shots and it can be used with a handgun too .

I suggest you seriously rethink your position on all of this because this kind of advice on a public forum will get people killed and if used and not articulated correctly could land you in jail for shooting when your life wasn't in danger of immanent death a standard almost universally required to fire a gun at someone .

It might be fun to fantasize about shooting someone , stopping the threat and never really putting them in danger of dying but fact is you might as well try the Lone Ranger shoot the gun out of their hand BS as a pelvic girdle shot .

They don't call it deadly force for nothing you know !
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Old 08-23-2008, 06:21 PM   #19
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Statistics say that three times through out your life you will have a life threatening altercation of some sort.
In the event you are able to defend your self through the use of a firearm, a lot of things have to come into play to assure your survival.
FBI statistics reveal that most gunfights happen in an area 12 feet between assailant and victim, some a little closer and some a little farther, but you get the idea, in the heat of battle for life and death a whole lot of things happen, dew to stress and emotion as well as physically, and mechanically.
To become successful at the fine art of self defense you must practice it untill it becomes second nature, as if there is know thought involved, just a knee jerk reaction, this can only be done through practice, once you have mastered speed and accuracy, shot placement becomes the issue, now your not shooting a target stapled to a piece of wood, the human target moves and takes cover and is much harder to put holes in, you would be surprised at how many gunfights take place with in just a few feet of each other,where both parties empty there magazines and score zero hits.
If you just take your pistole to the range and fire a box of rounds every so often at a 10 X Bull's-eye target you are going to become a fair shot after a while, but to really train yourself to become sufficient in a self defense situation, you have to pretrain your mind to react in a hostile situation, so that everything you have learned flows in a nice fluid motion to insure your survival.
This involves getting rid of the 10 X Bull-eye target and replacing it with human silhouette target, this gets the brain familiarized with shooting at a human target, along with that, practice shooting from a variety of positions, as your target will be moving and be in different positions, most law enforcement practice a double tap to the torso and one to the head, I am guessing this rarely ever happens in real life as the head is probably the hardest thing to hit in a gunfight, my personal suggestion would be to try if possible to keep them all center mass as much as you can, if the opportunity offer a guaranteed shot to th melon then by all means take it, remember as I believe someone already mentioned a head shot dose not always mean death instantly, it requires you sever the spinal cord at the base of the skull, that will stop all twitching of nerves period, this is a tuff shot to make in the heat of battle, it is referred to as ("INSTANT INCAPACITATION") normally carried out by sharp shooters in law enforcement, where a scoped rifle and a marksman eliminate the bad guy wth extreme prejudice in a hostage situation, in the event you make a head shot, do not shoot for the forehead, try to place shot right under the nose and above the lip and teeth, in a head on situation that should sever the spine and cause instant death, there by defusing said bad guy, A good rule of thumb know matter where you are shooting in a life and death situation, is don't stop shooting until bad guy is no longer a threat!!! Empty the magazine till you have one round left, just in case he or she should twitch, good to have that last hail Marry shot!!!

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Old 08-23-2008, 10:36 PM   #20
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Big001, I suggest that you reread my post and let it sink in a little before you come at me half-cocked (pun intended). Let us evaluate what I said and the point I was trying to make.
In a fast paced life or death situation, if you think that you can draw your weapon and get the headshot, tear it up. Apparently you have never heard of the 21 ft. rule. Maybe you can google it. If a determined attacker is armed with a knife, axe, club or any other weapon that he may be able to wield proficiently, he can cover a distance of 21 ft. in the time span of about 1 second. That my friend is barely enough time to assess the threat, draw your weapon and get a shot off. The thoracic cavity is a large target as is the pelvic girdle. The difference is you are going to hit only organs with a chest shot. Yes it will be effective but after how many second or minutes? It is on record that a violent felon was able to continue fighting for over a minute and was able to kill the officer that put a round through his heart. The pelvic girdle is the most important part of the skeletal system. The legs are connectd to the pelvis and the spine is connected. If you shatter the pelvis, the aggressor will collapse. Will he still be dangerous? Possibly. That is why is said get the hell out of dodge. I really don't care what he has stuck in his pants. Once the aggression in my direction has stopped I will look for cover or simply bug out depending on the circumstances. The football remark was an analogy about taking out the legs. Duh! Same principal.
Concerning the remark about the sniper. I have nothing against them at all. They are doing a heck of a job overseas. I believe the blog was about shot placement in a self defense situation. Yeah if you are laying in wait and want to choose your shot, good luck. But even a sniper will take a head shot over that of the carotid or femoral arteries.
I don't know of anyone who sits around fantasizing about taking someone out. That remark was about other bloggers suggesting that shots be taken to small targets such as the base of the skull, the femoral or carotid arteries. That kind of thinking will get someone killed.
You thinking that my remarks on this open forum are reckless or irresponsible is just as misinformed as your comparing a pelvic shot to that of trying to shoot the gun out of someones hand.
And just to let you know, you had better be certain that your life or someone else's life is in immediate peril before you even consider drawing your weapon.

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