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Old 06-05-2007, 04:33 PM   #1
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Default Shot Placement?

I'm hearing time and time again that with a self-defense handgun load, shot placement is more important that how big the bullet is, or how fast it moves. I remember seeing a video where a Navy SEAL was talking about their equipment, and that their sidearm is a 9mm, and how the round gets made fun of. He went on to say that his enemies won't be making fun of it when they've got two in their heart, and one in their brain.

I admit I know very little about human anatomy. I don't know how the body will be affected by a hit to a given spot.

Are there any resources that summarize things like this? Obviously, taking a shot to the brain or heart will quickly remove the threat, but are there any other areas?

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Old 06-06-2007, 12:43 PM   #2
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Default Shot Placement?

Hello Number 1/ALL


YUP, the critical factor in so many shootings as to weather 1 shot stopped the sillyness, PLACEMENT! Thats why, Though I'm not a big Fan of .22LR as a Defence round, it sure has taken it's share of Folks in a lot of shootings? I've always wanted to use a firearm that was about .32, as I have seen those calibers below that fail, Placement was indeed the Key, even with the smaller calibers, in fact prehaps even more?


So many in Law Enforcement as well as the Military rejoiced when we switched to a large capacity auto, I cried a lot over it? I caried a 38 with +P amo with a good Hollow Point for years and had 0 COMPLAINTS! Looking at younger, fellow officers at the range that 17 rounds of what ever ammo is doing no good, if few hit the paper? I've always said shoot what ya carry, try to shoot it well, as that might depend on weather you roll home at night? So many spay and Pray and I enjoy fast shooting, but it's gotta be a hit what you aim at situation, or it was just wasting ammo?

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Old 04-20-2008, 05:32 PM   #3
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All major police groups have, at one time or another, done research involving shot placement, penetration and so on. Shot placement or accuracy of fire is a very important factor to survival shooting. So is the ammo choice. For example there are people who claim that "a lightweight bullet traveling at a high rate of speed is just as effective as a big bore bullet." That is also a huge load of carp. If you are going to shoot at an armed and dangerous man, you want a bullet that has weight and speed behind its movement. I would never, never carry, use or reccomend Silvertip Ammo to anybody. And I do mean NEVER! Illinois State Police had two troopers stop a biker up near Chicago. The biker was wanted on some felony warrants. Since he had nothing to lose, he pulled his revolver and started shooting at the troopers. The troopers returned fire, in those days, with their Model 39 S&W 9 mm pistols. A total of about 22 hits were made on the biker. The biker died at the scene. What actually killed the biker was a heart attack, not ISP bullets. At the autopsy, it was determined that not a single one of the troopers' Silvertips got past or through the biker's leather coat. The troopers had managed to hit the biker but none of their bullets, because they didn't have the right amount of weight behind them, could do the job. So, to me, shot placement, bullet weight and speed of the bullet (power behind the projectile) are the three most important factors for defending yourself.

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Old 04-21-2008, 12:12 AM   #4
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Only a shot to the brain stem or spinal column will immediately incapacitate/kill a target. A shot to the heart, aorta or liver will be lethal, but the target could have several seconds or longer of life in him depending on the size of the round used.

Hands down, shot placement is more important than any other factor. People will argue that a low-recoil 9mm will help with shot placement over a hand-cannon .45. Others compromise on a .40.

Everything I have read or been taught says to try to place your shots effectively, but keep shooting until your attacker goes down.

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Old 04-21-2008, 02:32 PM   #5
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There are only 3 ways to insure a stop.
1. Destroy (or seriously damage) the central processing unit (brain).
2. Unplug the wiring from the CPU to the rest of the system (sever the spine)
3. Deprive the CPU of power (Reduce blood pressure to or near zero or bleed out the system)

#'s 1 and 2 will end the agression immediately.
#3 will take a few seconds to a few minutes.

Unfortunately, all three are lethal.

To accomplish #1 you must hit one of the more mobile areas of the body (Head), penetrate the armor (Skull) and penetrate deeply enough to destroy the CPU.

To accomplish #2 you must penetrate the body, reach the spine, penetrate the spine, sever the spinal cord. This must be accomplished high enough in the body to effect the arms.

To accomplish #3 you must put a hole (or several holes) in the pump (heart), one or more major arteries or veins, or strike a blood rich organ (liver). This will take some time to effect the CPU as the retained oxygen in the brain will take several seconds to be depleted causing unconsciousness.

Shot placement is vital in the equation as are pentration and bullet diameter. A big hole in a non vital area cannot be relyed upon to incapacitate the attacker.

A deep hole that does not penetrate a vital area is painful but useless.

A small hole through a heart will not bleed sufficiently as heart muscle tends to be elastic and self sealing (to some degree).

Skulls are very tough and I have seen bullets ricochet off when the angle of impact is too great. I have seen .38 silvertips lodge in facial bones and fail to penetrate to the brain. That was one he!! of a headache for a few seconds but the follow up shot took out the right ventrical of the heart and the attacker bled out fairly quickly.

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Old 05-11-2008, 10:28 PM   #6
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absolutely positively 100% percent correct shot placement is thee most important thing in a shooting situation

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Old 05-12-2008, 07:42 PM   #7
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The reason you can't find a lot of information about how to stop a human is simple, it's just not a good idea to spread that kind of info around unless you are a 'Professional'...

I took a semester of human anatomy to learn about 'Vulnerable' spots, and what would, and wouldn't, be a 'One Shot Stop', or 'No Reaction Kill' before I could be a military instructor in such matters.

Also, there are a few basic 'Rules' or 'Truths' you must embrace before you decide to practice this stuff.

1. The closer an adversary is to you, the better chance you have of hitting a 'Soft' spot,
But equally,
The greater risk there is of you being injured or killed by that very adversary.
The farther you can keep away from an adversary and still engage the better off you will fair.

2. Larger calibers that move faster, and are more likely to be fired from ACCURATE firearms.
This allows for 'Stand Off' from adversities and greatly increases your chance of surviving the incident.

3. The brain stem, on an axis from front to rear between your front teeth, is the ONLY sure 'No Reaction Kill'.
Any shots to the skull will not guarantee you a no reaction kill, and in the event the adversary has a finger on the trigger, he will likely get at least one round off.

No matter what you have seen or read, an eye socket shot IS NOT a 'No Reaction Kill' point. Neither is a nasal cavity shot, too much bone to deal with.
Both are virtually 100% lethal shots, but what's left of the brain/brain stem can convulse the body.

4. I'm not a real fan of small caliber firearms, handguns in particular, but even a .25 auto will drop the largest opponent if you use it to sever or damage the brain stem.

A small caliber firearm can be pressed against the neck, and it's natural target will be the indentations for the Carotid arteries and terminate at the Brain stem.

5. A direct shot to the head IS NOT a sure kill!
There is one case study after another where someone has been hit in the head by small and large, fast and slow bullets, and not died, or at least not died immediately, and in many cases wasn't seriously incapacitated.

6. Secondary or 'Second Tier' targets would be Major arteries or ball and socket joints, especially Carotid arteries in the front of the neck, Femoral arteries in the hip joints/groin area,
And,
Shoulder & hip joints. A hit to a ball & socket joint usually results in 'Instant Body Shock' and incapacitates in 3 to 5 seconds.

Carotid artery shot will incapacitate in a maximum of 3 to 5 seconds.
Femoral artery shot will incapacitate in about 15 seconds maximum.

Simply press a small caliber pistol against the soft tissue, and it will find the natural channel these major arteries lie in.
On the neck, it's the soft tissue channel to either side of the larix.
In the groin, is to either side just inside of the hip joint.
These areas are rarely protected by body armor like the heart/lungs/liver might be.

7. A 'Third Tier' target would be the femoral artery further down the inside of the thigh.
Damage to the femoral artery further down can be treated with a tourniquet, but the adversary WILL be out of the fight virtually immediately.

8. A shot to the pelvis is a sure 'Stopper'.
Even if you miss the Femoral artery, you will shock the spinal column, and the adversary will loose temporary use of their legs.
-----------------------------

Human Brain Anatomy,

The lower part of the human brain/brain stem is called the "Medulla Oblongata".
The 'Perfect Shot' will sever the brain stem between the medulla oblongata, and the upper spinal column.

If you sever above the 'Pons' (another part of the brain stem above the medulla oblongata) you WILL have convulsive reactions and heart/respiration will continue.

If you sever the brain stem AT the medulla oblongata, you *MAY* have convulsive reaction, and heart/respiration *MAY* continue.

Severing the brain stem directly below the medulla oblongata is the ONLY 'No Reaction Kill'... Period.

From behind, you would aim for the 'Arch' at the base of the skull (bottom of the Occipital bone, between the Occipital Condyle that rest on the first vertebra. (where neck meets skull)

From the front, you would aim between the front teeth with the head level, to a point projected trough the center of the Occipital Bone in the rear.
This is the EXACT point where the medulla oblongata ends and the regular spinal column starts.

From the side, you would aim even with the bottom of the ear lobe, about half way between ear lobe and back of neck.

I can GUARINTEE this information is correct. It's 'Field Tested'.

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Old 05-31-2008, 06:25 PM   #8
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robocop's got it right. also take note that you have an 87 percent chance of survival from a pistol wound. your first 2 shots should be center mass followed by (if necessary) by a shot to the FACE (not the forehead like in the movies). if you're facing your taget face to face and place your round right through his nose it will pass through the skull unmolested and sever the brain stem. that's much easier said than done needless to say.

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Old 05-31-2008, 10:30 PM   #9
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Hmmm .... I've carried them all. I've settled down with the 45 acp. In the wintertime I alternate my rounds between JHP and FMJ. Whatever else you do hit 'um, at least, 3 times; and, if they're still standing, then, give 'um 3 more. Winchester Silvertips, in any caliber, are absolute crap; and, 9mm anything ain't far behind. (It's a joke - OK!)

The proper way to think of the human body as a ballistic target is to view every humanoid silhouette as an inverted, 'T'. The head is at the top of the vertical shaft. The shaft itself is comprised of a 4 inch wide area that runs concomitant with the backbone; and, the lower horizontal cross member consists of the pelvic girdle.
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Old 05-31-2008, 11:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G21.45 View Post
Hmmm .... I've carried them all. I've settled down with the 45 acp. In the wintertime I alternate my rounds between JHP and FMJ. Whatever else you do hit 'um, at least, 3 times; and, if they're still standing, then, give 'um 3 more. Winchester Silvertips, in any caliber, are absolute crap; and, 9mm anything ain't far behind. (It's a joke - OK!)

The proper way to think of the human body as a ballistic target is to view every humanoid silhouette as an inverted, 'T'. The head is at the top of the vertical shaft. The shaft itself is comprised of a 4 inch wide area that runs concomitant with the backbone; and, the lower horizontal cross member consists of the pelvic girdle.
i think you described what i was trying to say a whole lot better. i'm a big fan of .45 ACP as well unfortunately my dept. uses 9mm. however i use winchester ranger T-series in my off duty and duty weapons. i heard the ranger t-series in .45 perform really well. they're just hard to get.
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