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Old 11-23-2011, 05:22 PM   #21
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BKT,

If it collapses here, I don't believe there will be anywhere else to go. US is still the financial center, and when combined with the Euro, the two are 85% of all currency movement. You take either, or both out of the equation, there's nothing left.
I didn't mean to imply there was anywhere else we could go. And while you're right that the euro and dollar represent the biggest mixed economy in the world, there will come a time when neither currency can buy much due to the debt associated with the Eurozone and U.S. respectively. That will leave much of Asia in trouble when their trading partners hit the skids. In other words, the failure of the euro may only be one of several dominoes, but when it falls it could very well cause a global chain of events resulting in very bad, hard times for everyone.
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Old 11-23-2011, 06:12 PM   #22
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So, you think he should fix the economy by going around congress? Rule by executive order? I like the man, but not that much.
I nearly puked when I read the first half of the sentence, but was able to choke it back briefly upon reading the last half.
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Old 11-23-2011, 06:13 PM   #23
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I find this subject kind of funny, because supposedly Glemn Beck and Chuck Norris have insurgent cells all over the US. If Chuck Norris is for us, who can be against us?
Clint Eastwood?
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Old 11-23-2011, 06:55 PM   #24
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Clint Eastwood?
In his prime, he could take Chuck. Alas, that's one hero that's getting on in years. Besides, he'd probably side with us too.
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Old 11-23-2011, 07:26 PM   #25
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Who are "my men" in the House? There's Ron Paul...maybe a couple others, and no, they can't do a damn thing because there aren't more like them.

I blame Obama for having signed laws that spent more money than all other presidencies combined.

I blame Bush for getting the ball rolling in regard to the Prescription Drug plan, bail-outs, TARP, etc.

I blame the Federal Reserve for spending $16 trillion with no oversight.

I blame Congress for pandering to voters with bribes.

And we can go back at least as far as Wilson and lay blame in that era and find all sorts of inane, illegal and costly moves that have contributed to our problem.

It's past time you put away the partisan bullsh!t, chainfire, and got with the program. It isn't about Republicans versus Democrats anymore. When someone is critical of Obama that doesn't mean they're fighting for the Republican team.
BKT,

I appreciate your point, but the reality of the situation is we are either going to be governed by Democrats or Republicans for the foreseeable future. Like it or hate it, that is the way it is.

I don't like either, Democrats or Republicans, but I dislike the Democrats less, because I see the Republicans representing big business to the cost of all others. I see us heading towards a economic fascist form of government. I am not sure that this can be stopped; there is just too much money and power working against the people. I do think that the more Democrats we elect the slower the process will happen. In ten more years or so I will be out of here and it won't matter a damn bit to me, but I sure hate to see what is coming for my, and for you all's children.

One thing that most people who are gun folks don't seem to get is that damn near 1/2 of the people in the country feel this way. That is why our elections are toss-ups.

I know some folks consider me a troll, but they are flat wrong. I come to gun forums because I am a gun guy. It is not comfortable to post a liberal bias in places like this, but then again, I have never run from a fight.
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Old 11-23-2011, 07:53 PM   #26
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Unfortunately, I think most of you are wrong about the collapse of our economic system coming anytime soon. I don't think we're going to be that lucky.

In my view we have two major problems:

First: The richer are getting richer and have been for the last forty years (since Nixon - which was also the last nail in the coffin for the gold standard). The accumulation of money by those at the top results in less for those in the middle and the bottom (wealth is not finite but for all practical purposes money is). That doesn't work out well for an economy based on mass consumption. The masses can't consume if they're all broke. Our corporate and political leaders have forgotten that trickle down economics only works when money is actually trickling down. Just to put all of that in perspective, I read a statistic that stated if the average hourly corporate employee had received the same average percentage pay increase over the previous 10 years as top management that the average hourly worker would be making around $80,000 a year. I read that in 1999. Anyone want to guess what that number would be today?

Second: When we do buy it's far to often from China and that's probably not going to change anytime soon, which makes the first problems even worse because there is no competition for labor in the US to raise wages.

Our economic system could implode but I don't think it will? There will be a lot of problems and unrest but I don't think it is going to collapse. I think discrepancy in income is going to accelerate and the richer are going to get richer. The majority of us are just going to be a hell of a lot poorer and as a nation we are going to be more like India and China with millions (billions?) living in absolute poverty. And of course gun rights will be dramatically restricted...You can't have all of those poor people running around with guns. Note: The National Firearms Act was passed during the great depression.

Just my .02

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Old 11-23-2011, 09:05 PM   #27
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Old 11-23-2011, 09:36 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by TLuker View Post
Unfortunately, I think most of you are wrong about the collapse of our economic system coming anytime soon. I don't think we're going to be that lucky.

In my view we have two major problems:

First: The richer are getting richer and have been for the last forty years
"Rich" is a relative term. If we mean some people are bringing in more cash, that may not necessarily mean their standard of living is increasing any. If you mean they're accruing wealth at a faster rate, that's OK provided the middle class and lower class are doing likewise. And that is mostly how it has been over the last 40 years: those in the middle-class when they start out end up in the upper class by the time they retire. Those in the lower class have also moved up.

But to your point, you're right - there is a VERY noticeable divide where those in the upper class tend to stay there and get wealthier and those in the middle class stay there if they're lucky or fall to the lower class.

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(since Nixon - which was also the last nail in the coffin for the gold standard). The accumulation of money by those at the top results in less for those in the middle and the bottom (wealth is not finite but for all practical purposes money is).
Good observation! That right there tells you our currency is not a store of wealth. Money, by definition, is a store of wealth. Therefore, our currency is not money. Money and the dollar have been two different animals for 40 years.

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That doesn't work out well for an economy based on mass consumption. The masses can't consume if they're all broke.
The idea that an economy can be based on consumption via accruing personal debt is absurd even at casual glance. But our currency is based on debt - deferred value (maybe) rather than intrinsic value.

That system can only work provided the rate of productivity outpaces the rate of consumption and personal, corporate and national debt is managed intelligently. That's not where we are.

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Our corporate and political leaders have forgotten that trickle down economics only works when money is actually trickling down.
We don't want the money banks and corporations are holding in vast supply to trickle down; that will increase inflation in a big way! It would be OK if our productivity were keeping pace with the rate the Fed is creating money but it isn't.

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Second: When we do buy it's far to often from China and that's probably not going to change anytime soon, which makes the first problems even worse because there is no competition for labor in the US to raise wages.
Very true. Unfortunately, the cost of doing business in the U.S. is higher than the cost of doing business in other countries. The result is cheaper goods from overseas or more expensive goods made at home. Consumers gravitate, predictably, toward less-expensive goods.

The cost of doing business in the U.S. has to be lowered - which is very possible with intelligent deregulation. As discretionary income dwindles, demand for unnecessary goods from overseas (which accounts for most things, if you think about it) will fall. That won't help Asia, but reducing rampant consumption is necessary.

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Our economic system could implode but I don't think it will?
You may very well be right. But the biggest underlying problem is not consumerism or a divergence in wages. It is our currency. If our currency holds up, no, we probably won't see an economic collapse. But can it hold up?

Put another way, why should it hold up? Consider our debt and low productivity and the ~$20 trillion or so spent in the last 5+ years. That's not a sign of strong currency.

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Originally Posted by TLuker View Post
There will be a lot of problems and unrest but I don't think it is going to collapse. I think discrepancy in income is going to accelerate and the richer are going to get richer. The majority of us are just going to be a hell of a lot poorer and as a nation we are going to be more like India and China with millions (billions?) living in absolute poverty. And of course gun rights will be dramatically restricted...You can't have all of those poor people running around with guns. Note: The National Firearms Act was passed during the great depression.

Just my .02
You won't lose your firearms unless you give them away. Let's put that to bed right now. That's not to say the Feds won't ever try to ban them; just whether or not they succeed is up to us, not them.

The income gap may continue for a while. But consider this: the idiots at OWS are well-fed people with iPads, Macbooks, smartphones and plenty of money for dope. Yet they're clamoring for capitalism's demise and calling for violence. They're not hungry. They're not living on the street. But wait 'til a lot of people are in that boat. Wait 'til those on welfare and other government subsidies can't buy what they need with the inflated checks they receive. Hungry, desperate people tend to do stupid, violent things.

That represents societal collapse which is worse than economic collapse.

I hope we never see that. The indicators don't look too great for the Almighty Buck right now and they haven't for months.
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Old 11-23-2011, 09:49 PM   #29
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I agree that the problem doesn't lie with any one party, but with both. However, I think the Republicans may delay or perhaps even alleviate some of our problems. In reality, the problems surpass any party lines.
Would Ron Paul be the ideal leader under the circumstances? I don't think so because while he would definitely bring us back to a more Constitutional form of government, some of his policies would hasten the collapse of our currency/economy. Right now, while we need wholesale changes to government, the economy must be handled carefully.

So, where does that leave us? I haven't a clue.

BTW, I still prefer Michelle Bachmann for President. But the old boy network won't let her win the nomination, they would lose all their power.

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Old 11-24-2011, 01:22 AM   #30
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Each party has been out spending revenue for decades. The surprising bright spot was Clinton with the Newt congress...

Spending increases about the same amount (until bambam anyway) each and every year.

We literally have hit the steep part of the exponential curve, with a flattening population... it's working against us.

CA, I don't like any of our choices. IMO Bachman is an idiot, Sarah is filled with sound bites, Ron {sigh} his ideas are good, but IMO way too radical to work, Cain - check with his advisers, Newt has way too much baggage and even worse, not sure he's what he says he is... and finally Mr. health care anti 2nd amendment, the RINO.

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