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jamesb 02-02-2011 03:35 PM

Scenario -What would you do?
 
My buddy and I were having a discussion and I'd like to know what you guys think. What would you do?

SCENARIO: LEAVING THE MALL

You are leaving the mall alone after going shopping. You have one bag in your weak hand and nothing in the other. You have a CCW and are carring it strong side IWB. Upon heading out into the parking garage where your car is parked two males that you did not see begin to follow you about 12 feet back. It is night time and you are alone. No one else seems to be around.

You are aware of this and turn around and tell them to stop following you. You are walking backwards at this point with them 10 feet from you. Their hands are exposed, no weapons can be seen, but they seem to be following you for a reason other than a friendly conversation. They continue to advance. You tell them to "Stop! Get Back! Leave me alone!" To you it seems like you are going to get jumped, maybe attacked or carjacked. You are obviously concerned for your safety and these two guys don't seem detered by your commands.You continue to tell them to stop, while walking backwards to your vehicle which is parked at the far end of the lot.

The only way to possibly get away is to run by them back into the mall or to run to your car and hope you can get inside before they get to you. Neither option seems like a good idea. You are watching their hands and they are still exposed, but dammit, they are still coming towards you and it doesn't seem like a friendly visit. They say they just want to talk, but it obviously seems like more.

Considering they are acting aggressive, there isn't any sure way away from them without turning your back or trying to go around them what would you do? You draw your firearm, but they still advance and don't seem to be affected by it.


I personally think this is a reason to draw your weapon. You feel threatened and are afraid that bodily harm will come to you. While they have no visable weapons they arn't friends, it's late at night, and their visit doesn't seem to be friendly. My question is do you feel it is justified to shoot if they continue to advance without any weapons?

My friend thought you should draw, but shoot for their legs not center mass. He said it would be better to wound then to possibly kill them considering they have no weapons or haven't said anything threatening.

I feel that it is definitely wrong to shoot to wound, but how can I explain it to him besides " you don't do that ever."?

What would you do and what do you think of my friends reaction in this scenario?

On one hand I think that shooting either of these guys is the wrong move, and looks bad if they don't have any weapons on them, but seeing what people can do once they get close enough even with their bare hands sure makes me feel threatened and fear for my life. Plus, they could have a knife or something and just haven't pulled it yet. They arn't sane seeing as how you keep telling them to stop and get back.

NOTE: None of this happened. We were just having a discussion and seeing how we both had two totally different ways of considering handling it, I wanted others opinions.

DrJason 02-02-2011 03:58 PM

1st, if I'm drawing my gun I'm planning on shooting......that said if they turn and run, I'm obviously not shooting them in the back unless they are running and shoot backwards (most likely not realistic). And if I'm shooting, I'm shooting center mass, otherwise you are putting yourself in a dangerous situation if they fire back and you are now out of bullets.

I was taught if you are in an uncomfortable situation to say something beyond what you wrote "leave me alone" and say, "I have a gun, I don't want to hurt you, LEAVE ME ALONE".

My $0.02, never actually been in a situation where I have had to use my weapon and hope to never have to.

c3shooter 02-02-2011 04:15 PM

You do not "shoot to wound" or "shoot to kill". You shoot to stop a threat against your life. I freely invite anyone that thinks they can reliably "shoot to wound" while moving, against a moving target, in poor light, under stress, multiple targets, to visit my world. The sky is a lovely blue color here, and I would love to know what color it is in their world.

Translation- your friend is being totally unrealistic. Center mass has a much higher likelihood of stopping the threat. Even then, it does not work 100.0000% of the time. A friend, LEO, put two rounds of .357 in the chest of a bad guy at 3 ft. Bad guy had already broken my friend's collar bone (he did not know that at the moment, all he knew was that nothing on his left side worked) Bad guy turned and WALKED AWAY. Was tackled by 4 other LEOs responding, and fought with them. He did die in the ER- 30 minutes later. Better living thru chemistry- he was high as a kite.

Back to your scenario- I have no idea what the motive is of the two subjects- if they are legit (store security that want to talk with me) they should identify themselves. LEO- show me the badge. If I have drawn a weapon, spoken, and they have ignored what I said, and continued to advance on me, there is about to be a very loud sound.

NGIB 02-02-2011 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrJason (Post 435389)
1st, if I'm drawing my gun I'm planning on shooting......that said if they turn and run, I'm obviously not shooting them in the back unless they are running and shoot backwards (most likely not realistic). And if I'm shooting, I'm shooting center mass, otherwise you are putting yourself in a dangerous situation if they fire back and you are now out of bullets.

I was taught if you are in an uncomfortable situation to say something beyond what you wrote "leave me alone" and say, "I have a gun, I don't want to hurt you, LEAVE ME ALONE".

My $0.02, never actually been in a situation where I have had to use my weapon and hope to never have to.

I think this covered it pretty well. Lots of factors can come into play. Folks DO NOT need to have a weapon to harm you - especially multiple folks. Using a tad more forceful language such as "Back the f_ck off or I'll shoot your silly azzes" may get their attention a bit quicker...

IGETEVEN 02-02-2011 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesb (Post 435373)
SCENARIO: LEAVING THE MALL

You are leaving the mall alone after going shopping. You have one bag in your weak hand and nothing in the other. You have a CCW and are carring it strong side IWB. Upon heading out into the parking garage where your car is parked two males that you did not see begin to follow you about 12 feet back. It is night time and you are alone. No one else seems to be around.

You are aware of this and turn around and tell them to stop following you. You are walking backwards at this point with them 10 feet from you. Their hands are exposed, no weapons can be seen, but they seem to be following you for a reason other than a friendly conversation. They continue to advance. You tell them to "Stop! Get Back! Leave me alone!" To you it seems like you are going to get jumped, maybe attacked or carjacked. You are obviously concerned for your safety and these two guys don't seem deterred by your commands.You continue to tell them to stop, while walking backwards to your vehicle which is parked at the far end of the lot.

The only way to possibly get away is to run by them back into the mall or to run to your car and hope you can get inside before they get to you. Neither option seems like a good idea. You are watching their hands and they are still exposed, but dammit, they are still coming towards you and it doesn't seem like a friendly visit. They say they just want to talk, but it obviously seems like more.

Considering they are acting aggressive, there isn't any sure way away from them without turning your back or trying to go around them what would you do? You draw your firearm, but they still advance and don't seem to be affected by it.

"BANG!, BANG!, BANG!, and BANG!"

The next sound is of a car door closing and the slight screech of tires can be heard exiting the parking lot.

"News at Eleven." Hypothetically speaking...:cool:

Now, some things to consider...Were you really alone, no one was anywhere around? Did you notice any parking lot cameras? Does your state have "Castle Doctrine" and/or "Stand your Ground Laws"...and did you really feel threatened and feared for your life? After several warnings to them and they refuse to stop, you draw your gun, and clearly and loudly state "I will shoot!" They continue to encroach way into the "21" foot mark of your personal defense space.

"BANG!, BANG!, BANG!, and BANG!"

jamesb 02-02-2011 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NGIB (Post 435395)
I think this covered it pretty well. Lots of factors can come into play. Folks DO NOT need to have a weapon to harm you - especially multiple folks. Using a tad more forceful language such as "Back the f_ck off or I'll shoot your silly azzes" may get their attention a bit quicker...

I think that last line, if there happened to be somebody else to witness this, is going to make you look a bit crazy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IGETEVEN (Post 435409)
"BANG!, BANG!, BANG!, and BANG!"



The next sound is of a car door closing and the slight screech of tires can be heard exiting the parking lot.

"News at Eleven." Hypothetically speaking...:cool:

Now, some things to consider...Were you really alone, no one was anywhere around? Did you notice any parking lot cameras? Does your state have "Castle Doctrine" and/or "Stand your Ground Laws"...and did you really feel threatened and feared for your life? After several warnings to them and they refuse to stop, you draw your gun, and clearly and loudly state "I will shoot!" They continue to encroach way into the "21" foot mark of your personal defense space.

"BANG!, BANG!, BANG!, and BANG!"

Thanks guys! I definitely agree with "shooting to stop the threat". Not to kill or wound. That is what I originally ment.

For this scenario the state has no castle or stand your ground law from my knowledge.

OK, the lot has cameras that rotate 360 degrees. So it is possible this was caught on tape. Do anything different? How about if there was a male and female heading to their car 60 feet away?

DrJason 02-02-2011 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesb (Post 435423)
I think that last line, if there happened to be somebody else to witness this, is going to make you look a bit crazy.



Thanks guys! I definitely agree with "shooting to stop the threat". Not to kill or wound. That is what I originally ment.

For this scenario the state has no castle or stand your ground law from my knowledge.

OK, the lot has cameras that rotate 360 degrees. So it is possible this was caught on tape. Do anything different? How about if there was a male and female heading to their car 60 feet away?

Of course that line is a little funny, but you get the point, you NEED to verbalize what you are going to do.

Honestly, cameras or other people are not going to chance what I would do and what I stated in my 1st post.

If your buddy still doesn't want to listen this advice I suggest he sign up for a defensive handgun course at S&W up in Springfield (as I noticed you are in CT), I have taken a number of courses there and one thing they stress is VERBALIZING your intentions to the aggressor with the hope that will be enough to deter them, most criminals are chickensh!ts and will only rob houses they think are empty or people they think are unarmed, it's takes a special type of sh!thead to continue when they know someone is in the house or the "target" is armed.

dunerunner 02-02-2011 05:32 PM

Nothing would be more threatening than for you to walk past a parked vehicle, put your shopping bag down, turn and confront the two following you. Of course you would place your hand on your weapon, but not reveal it and ask the two, "Can I help you fella's?"

My guess would be that at that point they would say, "No, we're just walking to our car right over there."

To which you reply, "Well, by all means; go right ahead!"

I'd watch them until they left in the vehicle.

You are assuming there is a threat and that assumption is being reinforced by paranoia. Confront the threat and if it is real, if they say give us your wallet and car keys or your dead; then you can shoot them.

The no witness issue is a problem, and I would not flee the scene, call police and explain what has happened. When they arrive, be sure your piece is unloaded and not in your immediate reach. Be cooperative and non-threatening and for God Sake, don't touch anything! If they are still alive, you could try to administer first aid.

NGIB 02-02-2011 06:34 PM

I'll add one point to Dune's post - say nothing until you have your lawyer standing beside you. I know a couple of defense attorneys from a local GA gun forum and that is their #1 recommendation. Be polite - but keep your mouth shut until your lawyer has arrived.

BTW, I'm sure glad GA is a "no retreat, stand your ground" state...

collegekid20 02-02-2011 06:44 PM

giving the scenario, I would not have turned and said anything to them. I would have first increased my walking pace to see if they did the same. If they did I would then walk between cars to see if they continue to follow me. Now if they get too close, then I will ask them what their deal is and if they don't give a reasonable/ believable response then out comes the personal protection. if they advance after that then bang bang, two to center mass for each. I believe in violence as the last option but if it gets down to it I don't want them to have a chance to tell the cops a lie and I end up getting screwed. just my opinion


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