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Old 08-18-2013, 02:43 AM   #71
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I would tend to agree with this, but I think the "don't screw with people with guns" thing is coming from the perspective of the people with the guns are the govt., and right or wrong, there is usually (IMHO), little or no repercussions to what they do. Unlike us. We're in a different category.

Maybe "people" in the above statement should be changed to "govt.". At least as it applies here.
So where do you draw the line in the sand where you, personally, would put the right to assemble over the governments willingness to shut you up, whether by arrest or by the barrel of a gun?

Apparently you do not draw that line at protesting an illegal action in a foreign country (as in Cambodia) by a sitting President, would you draw it at the illegal gathering of private information by our government? Illegal killing of American citizens at home or abroad? Did you protest then? Or will you wait until they come for you?
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:48 AM   #72
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Well, those are fair questions to which I don't have a complete answer at the moment......

As a partial answer......as it stands now, I think crossing the govt. is a stupid thing to do. It will solve nothing, and they can still lock you up and throw away the key. Depending on what you do. Protesting, well, I guess the would be different. It'd depend on the circumstances......

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Old 08-18-2013, 03:15 AM   #73
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When and where has any American been locked up for exercising his rights ? There is now and has always been rules concerning the right to assemble or speak out. Anyone who feels they have been unfairly denied their rights have many avenues of liberty to challenge the system. I agree that our rights as always are endangered. That said, we are still a free people.

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Old 08-18-2013, 05:37 AM   #74
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When and where has any American been locked up for exercising his rights ? There is now and has always been rules concerning the right to assemble or speak out. Anyone who feels they have been unfairly denied their rights have many avenues of liberty to challenge the system. I agree that our rights as always are endangered. That said, we are still a free people.
Most recently the Occupy movement arguably had their rights abridged and many were locked up for speaking out. In the past, Kent State for one. There are many, many others. The 1950's and 1960's are rife with examples.
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- Mohandas Gandhi, an Autobiography, page 446.
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Old 08-18-2013, 05:42 AM   #75
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Well, those are fair questions to which I don't have a complete answer at the moment......
Best you decide where the line is before the time comes when you need to draw it. The latter is when situations like Kent State arise.

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As a partial answer......as it stands now, I think crossing the govt. is a stupid thing to do. It will solve nothing, and they can still lock you up and throw away the key. Depending on what you do. Protesting, well, I guess the would be different. It'd depend on the circumstances......
"Crossing" the government is our duty as patriots when the need should arise. Or holding their feet to the fire as I like to say. Not unnecessarily mind you, but when it is appropriate, which is generally when they do something inappropriate!
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"Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."
- Mohandas Gandhi, an Autobiography, page 446.
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:10 PM   #76
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Under your premise then if the protestors had set up camp in the first days of the protesting and had been carrying guns, then the NG should not have entered into the battlefield.

If that is the premise then the Government would not have tried to enter the Branch Davidian compound.

Or apprehend the Weaver family.

And the British would not have tried to supress the Revolution.

My point is that might does not always make right. The Guard was criminally wrong here. They were the ones (looking back on it through the lens of written history) who screwed up. Lethal force was not justified!!!!!
Under my premise you can screw with people with guns. You just can't act shocked when you get shot doing it. If you screw with people with guns, get shot, and then are completely shocked that you got shot then you are an idiot.

There are times when it becomes necessary to mess with people with guns for whatever reason, but everyone that makes that choice should know that there could be consequences of that choice. Your reason for messing with those people is irrelevant. Their reason for shooting you is irrelevant. The politics and morality involved are irrelevant. Just because you believe you are right doesn't mean you can't get shot when you mess with people with guns.

I agree completely that might doesn't make right. Again, I was never talking about the politics of the time or the morality of the act. I was talking about a bunch of kids that didn't realize that they could possibly be shot, and then were completely shocked when some were. They were stupid and I have never been able to understand how they could have been in college and that stupid all at the same time. I'm not saying they were stupid because of what they believed or because they tried to change the outcome of national events (which they ultimately did). I'm saying they were stupid because they had no idea that their actions could have negative consequences, and then they were completely shocked by those consequences. They were in complete disbelief that some where shot and killed while screwing with people with guns. I have just never been able to understand that.

And just to add to that, maybe this is a class issue? Those were middle class college kids. I promise you that poor kids of the same age then and now would never have difficulty believing that they could possibly get shot for messing with people with guns - especially the government.

Just my .02
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:34 PM   #77
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When and where has any American been locked up for exercising his rights ? There is now and has always been rules concerning the right to assemble or speak out. Anyone who feels they have been unfairly denied their rights have many avenues of liberty to challenge the system. I agree that our rights as always are endangered. That said, we are still a free people.
Well, the Japanese internment camps during WWII would be a great example of Americans losing their rights.
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:36 PM   #78
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Most recently the Occupy movement arguably had their rights abridged and many were locked up for speaking out. In the past, Kent State for one. There are many, many others. The 1950's and 1960's are rife with examples.
The Occupy Movement people were not smart enough to obtain the proper permits, and they occupied property illegally in some cases. Plus they destroyed things and assaulted police officers. I'd say more of them should have been locked up.
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Old 08-18-2013, 05:46 PM   #79
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The Occupy Movement people were not smart enough to obtain the proper permits, and they occupied property illegally in some cases. Plus they destroyed things and assaulted police officers. I'd say more of them should have been locked up.
I agree in part. They went about their protests in the wrong way. But to me the requirement that people obtain a permit in order to protest is an abrogation of their right to do so freely, just as the Feds have curtailed the number and types of protests that can take place on the National Mall. Since 2010 the number of protests has fallen sharply, and most of those have not obtained permits.

As to occupying property illegally, is that not the one point that they agreed upon that they wanted to convey? Hell, its in the name of the movement for Christ's sake!

Destroying property and assaulting police is not going to endear your movement in the hearts of the average American voter. On the other hand, nearby me in Oakland, the police assaulted the unarmed protestors unprovoked. That was one of the many, many Occupy events that made international news, which is the point of any movement, isn't it? So to get noticed, a clash with police (who are armed) is going to help to legitimize your protest in some ways more effectively than making a peaceful and permitted event where everybody behaves.

For example one need look no further than to compare the Occupy protests to the Restoring Honor protests. Which one was more widely recognized?

I am in any way justifying the behavior of the Occupiers, but I do understand the dynamics of it.
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Old 08-18-2013, 06:46 PM   #80
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I agree in part. They went about their protests in the wrong way. But to me the requirement that people obtain a permit in order to protest is an abrogation of their right to do so freely, just as the Feds have curtailed the number and types of protests that can take place on the National Mall. Since 2010 the number of protests has fallen sharply, and most of those have not obtained permits.

As to occupying property illegally, is that not the one point that they agreed upon that they wanted to convey? Hell, its in the name of the movement for Christ's sake!

Destroying property and assaulting police is not going to endear your movement in the hearts of the average American voter. On the other hand, nearby me in Oakland, the police assaulted the unarmed protestors unprovoked. That was one of the many, many Occupy events that made international news, which is the point of any movement, isn't it? So to get noticed, a clash with police (who are armed) is going to help to legitimize your protest in some ways more effectively than making a peaceful and permitted event where everybody behaves.

For example one need look no further than to compare the Occupy protests to the Restoring Honor protests. Which one was more widely recognized?

I am in any way justifying the behavior of the Occupiers, but I do understand the dynamics of it.
Their 1st Amendment right's weren't being denied, abridged, or any other word you want to use. Citizens have a right to Peaceably Assemble. What the Occupy group did was not peace related.
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