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Old 07-28-2013, 04:59 AM   #41
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What a mature way of looking at it

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Old 07-28-2013, 05:06 AM   #42
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What a mature way of looking at it
One must not take oneself too seriously!
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"Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."
- Mohandas Gandhi, an Autobiography, page 446.
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:10 AM   #43
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But one must also respect oneself, and have confidence in what oneself is saying.
Oneself usually enjoys saying the word "oneself" repeatedly for entertainment purposes

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Old 07-28-2013, 05:12 AM   #44
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I do agree though, if you're not actively being affected by something you don't agree with, then stay the hell away from it. America is not going to revolt until people pull their heads out of their collective asses and see that bickering about the little things will only waste their oxygen and choke them out. At that point they really can't change anything, and dammit do we need change.

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Old 07-28-2013, 05:22 PM   #45
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Loc, although I often agree with your commentary, I cant agree with this statement. I didnt mention this incident as a commentary over if Nam was a good or bad war, that thread stands all by itself; it was more to clearly illuminate the day unauthorized protest became illegal in the US.

Im as patriotic as they come, no chicken feet (peace signs) allowed in our house and deserters were looked upon as cowards. The punks that spit on returning soldiers and refused to honer their commitment to our nation in a time of war were scum, (now they are elected politicians, high end scum). That said, nobody I grew up with thought it was AOK for the State to gun down unarmed protestors and nonparticipants, that was horrific and permanently ripped the fabric that bound us under one flag.

Add to that I served The Army National Guard for 17 years in NY and I cant think of a day when I would have found any joy in aiming my M16 at citizens in the act of non violent protest. If I had been ordered to do so under conditions like Kent, I would have considered that an unlawful order, I could not follow that order against anyone that wasnt exuding a threat to other citizens or us.

Kent State turned the entire concept of non violent protest on its head and its been that way ever since. They did stand down after Kent, it was obvious that if we didnt, our Nation would self destruct. Forces have been at play in the last 40+ years that have created a Mason Dixon line that dwarfs the original 10 to 1. We are as divided a country as only one other time in our history, before we were a Nation, when we were a Colony of expendable slaves for The Crown.

The outcomes of the last few elections only go to reinforce a deadly divide. Low Voter turnouts, unopposed candidacies and 52/48 decisions surely decry a broken bond with our American roots and a growing trend towards dividing and conquering; one party takes all. Peaceful protest is a corp element in the human process of evoking change, when its outlawed and regulated by the Gestapo, were heading in a direction that can only lead to revolution.
I have circled chicken feet on my M14. Yes, it's supposed to be some kind of sick joke. I meant to suggest something about the duality of man, you know, the Jungian thing. They can have me standing tall before the man but I don't care. They've already taken a giant sh!t on me.

BTW, the Kent State protest was NOT non-violent, but that doesn't give the National Guard the green light to shoot at ROTC members who were not engaged in the protest in any way. College student does not equal hippie.

As far as shooting at unarmed young women is concerned, that's an incorrect response in my book.

As far as another civil war is concerned, the only way that would happen is if the internet was shut down (no facebook, tweeting, or free porn) and the welfare checks stopped going out. That would be a disaster of epic proportions.

The only "core" process essential for evoking "human change" would be for you, or anyone else for that matter, to decide that what was going on between their ears may not have meshed very consistently with the world around them. Change begins in your mind, not by massing and chanting in front of a particular building.

The primary gripe that the Viet Nam war protesters had was that they were being sent to fight a war they didn't agree with and didn't have the ability to vote on because they weren't 21.

Personally, I think nobody who is on government assistance of any kind or who receives payment from the government (such as government employees and contractors), including government loan grants for college, should ever be permitted to vote or contribute to campaigns until that money is repaid (loans or government assistance) or that activity ceases (no longer receiving money from the government for goods or services). That's just me.
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:47 PM   #46
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College student does not equal hippie.
And "hippie" does not equal "target".

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The primary gripe that the Viet Nam war protesters had was that they were being sent to fight a war they didn't agree with and didn't have the ability to vote on because they weren't 21.
Since when does anyone of any age have any say when it comes to war unless they are in the Federal Government, let alone the Vietnam war? How many of us support the current wars? (I, for one, do not.)

I was born in 1965. My dad was born in 1929 and my mom in 1932. Both of them were old enough to vote in 1955 when the Vietnam conflict began. They protested it from the very beginning. They were not "dirty hippies", they did not do drugs, they are college graduates and had jobs. They brought me to many Vietnam War protests here in California while I was a child and I am proud to have gone to them- even if I had no say in the matter. My parents and my family never blamed our soldiers who came home after the war. My dad was a high school teacher during the war. Many of his students left to go to Southeast Asia and he hated to see each and every one of them go but welcomed each and every one of them who made it back home alive. I am proud of that legacy.

My parents were horrified by Kent State. I do remember that.
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"Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."
- Mohandas Gandhi, an Autobiography, page 446.
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Old 07-28-2013, 07:02 PM   #47
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And "hippie" does not equal "target".
Oh, c'mon, that stupid symbol makes a great target.

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Since when does anyone of any age have any say when it comes to war unless they are in the Federal Government, let alone the Vietnam war? How many of us support the current wars? (I, for one, do not.)

I was born in 1965. My dad was born in 1929 and my mom in 1932. Both of them were old enough to vote in 1955 when the Vietnam conflict began. They protested it from the very beginning. They were not "dirty hippies", they did not do drugs, they are college graduates and had jobs. They brought me to many Vietnam War protests here in California while I was a child and I am proud to have gone to them- even if I had no say in the matter. My parents and my family never blamed our soldiers who came home after the war. My dad was a high school teacher during the war. Many of his students left to go to Southeast Asia and he hated to see each and every one of them go but welcomed each and every one of them who made it back home alive. I am proud of that legacy.

My parents were horrified by Kent State. I do remember that.
Well, if you and a majority of your fellow Americans vote for someone who will end the war, then that's one way to stop a war.

LBJ was a lot like Obama when it came to talking out both sides of his mouth.

My history is a little rusty, but while Colonel Lansdale helped Diệm's anti-Bảo Đại campaign in 1955, it was awhile later when we had SF "advisors" there.

Kent State horrified a lot of people, most especially politicians with kids in college who were there to dodge the draft.
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Old 07-28-2013, 07:27 PM   #48
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The people who protested the war had this right given to them. That right was bonded by the "Blood" of American Servicemen. The protesters right or wrong brought unbearable pain to the parents and friends who lost sons and friends in that war.

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Old 07-28-2013, 08:14 PM   #49
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Realistic Revolution...

The only way for a revolution to take place is for the vast majority of citizens to become so dissatisfied with the current situation that taking up arms and risking death and imprisonment is a better alternative to maintaining status quo. The dissatisfaction has to be universal otherwise a civil war happens. It has to be so widespread that citizens in the military and police will not take up arms against their friends, family and fellow Americans in a substantial way.

Problem with revolutions, it typically takes a bigger thug than the one in power to overthrow a government. The US has been the most lawful place in the world to reside so therefore is the most unlikely for a revolution but...

George Washington must have been a truly noble human being as he turned down the "ring of power" when he likely could have continued to rule. Servant Leadership is a concept Americans should get to understand and recognize so we will have fewer Barack Obama's and Anthony Weiner's in power.

How it might happen...our currency is so devalued that rampant inflation takes hold...this combined with destructive policies around money, energy medical services and food. Years of termites eating at the constitution have given way to a society of men (the ruling class) and not laws like once was. Americans have lost their perspective on how we got to our great nation. Schools no longer teach American history but rather teach that America is an evil empire lusting to consume the world's resources. Civil unrest begins to swell and maybe armed conflict....then the govt calls in the national guard and deploys military...marshal law ensues....An over reach by a power hungry president declares by executive fiat that future elections will be postponed until order is restored. In impotent and compliant congress and Supreme court give their silent consent. The President's third, and unlawful, term begins. The military leadership suddenly realizes that the imposter in the white house is no longer under the protection of the military but fearing world unrest goes along for the ride...massive demonstrations on the Whitehouse lawn follow and are put down with guns....food is scarce, basic necessities can not be bought because Americans and the world realize our money is paper...maybe by then, there is no paper....the dollar is now a "credit" or TEC "transferable electronic credit". Necessities of life are in short supply and are rationed...liberals tend to see resources as scarce and therefore rationed...immense power for those who control things like air, water and oil! Life expectancy drops, drug use skyrockets, medical services decline and people with life-ending/altering diseases are not treated as they are not longer useful to society...more burden than value. Now the shooting war starts as leaders scramble for power and resources. Local militia form around local law enforcement offices and revolution is at hand...underground resistance and battles pop up all over. The White House is vacated and the new Emperor spends much of his time on Air Force One and on military bases. The Department of Homeland Security takes over as the heavy handed enforcer of martial law...the flight of the drones is at hand. Obama's stated vision of a civilian force as well equipped and well armed as the military is now a reality.

Sounds like a good book in the making! Realistically, I do not see an Egypt style revolution in this country happening in my lifetime. If our govt is dumb enough to allow our military status in the world take a back seat to China, Russia and/or Iran then a revolution would be far more likely if for no other reason than one or more of those rouge countries could arm the "rebels" like we often do.

Having said all of that though...there is a human characteristic of having to learn some things the hard way...this creates a circular historical path where some things just have to be learned the hard way (i.e. history repeats itself). I see it as a fundamental battle between intellect and brute force. We humans are predators and some human's (the brutes) favorite prey is other humans...especially when they are of a different "pack" so-to-speak. As we get smarter, we find better ways of killing each other....some use if for defense while others will use it for offense.

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Old 07-28-2013, 08:19 PM   #50
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The people who protested the war had this right given to them. That right was bonded by the "Blood" of American Servicemen. The protesters right or wrong brought unbearable pain to the parents and friends who lost sons and friends in that war.
Still doesn't make it right to kill the protestors. Especially, as you pointed out, they have the right to protest policies they don't agree with.
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