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Old 11-09-2007, 02:44 AM   #31
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If you want a home protection dog then you need to get a dog from a trainer unfortunatly these dogs are costly ($3000 +). These dogs are trained to defend you and your family. Having worked with Highly trained dogs before in the military (ARMY 91Tango) I can tell you this if you spend the time and money to get a protection trained dog it does not matter what breed it really is. You will find there are dogs that are better at this work than others. GSD, BM (Belgian Malinois), Dutch Shepards and other hearding/working dogs are your best. Of these breeds I would go with go with either a BM or a Dutch Shepard. You are going to have less helth problems with these that other large breed dogs like the GSD they are known to have Hip Displaysa elbow problems and are prone to bloat.

The bigger the more at risk they are for medical problems like bloat (Where stomach flips over itself, Hip, knee and elbow problems. Some dogs like the Great Dane have very short life spans the adverage life span for a dane is about 9 years. I have only seen one dane over 9 he was 11 and he went with his owner on a 5 to 8 mile run 5 mornings a week. These dogs are very active and need plenty of activity. You do not want a fat out of shape guard dog.


I will also say that having a protection trained dog is one thing. You need to be carful with one as they can be leathal. You and everyone in your family that might be alone with the dog needs to attend the training classes that most protection trainers offer to teach new owners how to handle their dog.

I will look for my pictures but I have a few of me on the wrong end of a GSD MWD (Military Working Dog).

Another thing to remember is you must keep very good records of all your vet visits with these dogs make sure you have a copy of all the vaccines your dog has recieved and update it every time they get new shots. I would also recomend atleast two vet visits each year. Make sure you also brush their teeth regulary and provide teeth cleaning treats.

The Last thing I am going to say is that when you talk about a home/ personal protection dog you are talking about a solider that is trained to love you and protect you at all cost. I would not encourage anyone to try and train your own protection dog. This could lead to being sued by a perp that said he trained his dog to be a killer. If you have one that is trained by a professional then one call from your att. gets them there to testify that they trained not only the dog but your family as well.

I have spent lots of time training dogs with general ed stuff like sit, stay, heal, down, shake, ect... I would never try to train a protection dog. This takes time and knowladge that takes years to learn and mass.

http://www.globalk9group.com/

http://www.protectiondogs.com/

http://www.cck9.com/

http://www.vomfieldcrestshepherds.com/

http://www.kiewelworkingdogs.com/

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Old 11-10-2007, 02:07 AM   #32
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I do not think I have ever known a Lab to attack, or defend anything but his food bowl, as someone has already stated.

On a side note, chickens, or guinnea hens are probably the best watch dogs.
Given the nature of the thread, Labs "CAN" be made reliably to 3rd level agitation, with a higher sucess rate than you would think. thier intelligence is a key, and thier inherent agression (hunting prowess) Can be steered towards guard agression pretty easily. I have had great sucess with them in years past, when I worked as a trainer. As a side note, an agression trained dog can NOT, be trusted with anyone but thier handler, and is basically a life sentance for the dog. They are trained to be a self reliant hunter, and meet anything out of the normal they have been shown with total dominance. Therefore, a 3rd level dog, can NEVER be trusted into any social setting with any reasonabe certainty that they will not attack from a real, or percieved threat. Dogs do not run on emotion, only instinct. They have no more problem in killing one of your kids, than killing a chicken when they have been taken into that 3rd level. German Shephards were one of the worse animals we had to deal with. They are inherantly unsound phisically, and in recent years, have become stricken with cowardess in battle, and more times than not, turn on thier handlers, or innocents in a fit of fear biting. Quite frankly, they have become mentally, and physically unstable. They are also the easiest breed to intice to agression, which is the reason you see so many offering them as guard dogs. Problem is, they are prone to mindless agression in battle. The thought process interrupts, and they revert to primal instinct, which is to bite everything in site, (even the handler) Towards the end of my training career. I refused them due to thier mental instability.
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Old 11-10-2007, 03:23 AM   #33
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No dog whatever 'level' (whatever that is) should be unsupervised with children, but sorry Firebrand your comments on the GSD are misinformed, I deal with European working dogs of all breeds on a daily basis, and have done since 1970!

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Old 11-10-2007, 04:44 PM   #34
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No dog whatever 'level' (whatever that is) should be unsupervised with children, but sorry Firebrand your comments on the GSD are misinformed, I deal with European working dogs of all breeds on a daily basis, and have done since 1970!
I train on a 3 level base. In my experience, it is the best way to evaluate a dogs behavior through his agitation training, and be certain they will hold when needed. Not every dog will make it to level 3, and most don't get to 1. My experience with the GSD, is just that. ..My experience, and is not taken from anything but my own experience over a span of 22 years. Talking about someones "favorite dog" is like talking about their wife. Feelings get hurt, and people get angry. That's why I prefer no one breed over another for guard training. Some of the best dogs I have turned out were muts. As a personal family pet, I like the Rottie, and they are no more than family pets that have been obedience trained. I dislike GSD's for the very reasons I stated before. You may have good luck with them, but I could not in good conscience guarantee them to be turn key when needed. I assure you, that I meant no personal dig to anyone that enjoys the breed. I not having knowledge of you or your background, I would not begin to call you "mis informed"
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Old 11-10-2007, 08:17 PM   #35
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Please do not feel slighted I mean no disrespect to yourself but I train all over Europe, not just in France but Germany and the Netherlands. I spend a good deal of time selecting and training working breeds, European bred working GSD's (with the exception of the UK) are generally good. It is always a matter of personal choice through experience I have provided departments over here and in the US and they have been happy with them. One of my dogs was a USPCA Field Trial Champion last year.

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Old 11-12-2007, 04:00 AM   #36
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I do not know what these levels are but, You could have fooled me that GSD are not good working dogs. Darn you better email HQ US Army Vet Com and tell them that 99% of there dogs are no good. GSD are not my favorite dog. Mine would be a BM.

What hurt the GSD breed is when the wall fell and the East German GSD (Which at the time was a seperate gean pool) was just ripped apart. If you ould get your hands on one you did.

ANY DOG can do this work. I have seen the most docile dogs make some of the best guard dogs.

Now if you want to talk about dogs that were no good that was the "SUPERDOG" program the army had back in the late 70 early 80's. They tied to breed the GSD and make a superdog well what they did was breed the GSD and get superdumb dogs they are all sorts of mental and helth problems because of all the inbreeding, I think most of them were put down in the end.

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Old 11-12-2007, 01:59 PM   #37
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You need to travel a bit more my friend...I train Mals as well as the GSD, don't believe everything you read in the press, central Europe have a sporting dog culture that goes back years, and as a rule they don't send their best dogs abroad. Mals are an extremely good working dog, but their main drawback is the are not good in the hands of a novice handler, and in the study in question the gentleman was enquiring if I am not mistaken for a dog to be apart of the family, in my view for what it's worth he would be better with a GSD!

Army dogs are a different kettle of fish, their application is not the same the criteria is completely different, if I where a military handler somewhere in the Middle East Conference at the moment I think I would prefer to handle a Mal.

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Old 11-12-2007, 10:12 PM   #38
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You need to travel a bit more my friend...I train Mals as well as the GSD, don't believe everything you read in the press, central Europe have a sporting dog culture that goes back years, and as a rule they don't send their best dogs abroad. Mals are an extremely good working dog, but their main drawback is the are not good in the hands of a novice handler, and in the study in question the gentleman was enquiring if I am not mistaken for a dog to be apart of the family, in my view for what it's worth he would be better with a GSD!

Army dogs are a different kettle of fish, their application is not the same the criteria is completely different, if I where a military handler somewhere in the Middle East Conference at the moment I think I would prefer to handle a Mal.
Here we fully agree. The military criteria for a guard /attack / century dog have little to do with the civillian counterpart. Apples to oranges. My dislike for the GSD is most certainly stock driven. We simply do not have access to the better of the european breeds as a whole. And the stock has been diluted with undesirable traits from well meaning, yet foolish breeding. Good stock is allways an issue, is excessively costly, and unreliable. General health, sight, and mental weakness has become such, that I chose to walk away from them. I can say this, If you have access to good dogs, do NOT send them to the US. as they will in short order ruin them through foul breeding programs.
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Old 11-13-2007, 09:28 AM   #39
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Yes I fully understand, the UK being a chip off mainland Europe has the same problem, mainly due to the goverment import restrictions, when I was in the job we where totally reliant on donated dogs, and had our fair share of crackpots with dodgy hips and elbows.

Due to the currency situation naturally business has ground to a holt in the US and I really miss the regular trips. It was not so much the business (although I still get a buzz out of it) but to be honest it was the opportunity to try and find the odd 1851 Navy for my collection. Not to mention Colt Pocket's.

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Old 11-15-2007, 12:46 AM   #40
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Yes I fully understand, the UK being a chip off mainland Europe has the same problem, mainly due to the goverment import restrictions, when I was in the job we where totally reliant on donated dogs, and had our fair share of crackpots with dodgy hips and elbows.

Due to the currency situation naturally business has ground to a holt in the US and I really miss the regular trips. It was not so much the business (although I still get a buzz out of it) but to be honest it was the opportunity to try and find the odd 1851 Navy for my collection. Not to mention Colt Pocket's.
It's a good thing when you can mix business with pleasure, and get someone else to pay for it too!!
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