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Old 12-03-2011, 12:59 PM   #61
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JonM,

While I am a proponent of PM...I also believe Real Estate is a better investment if you can afford it. It is one of my goals to have some rental properties in the future.

I am also with BKT about having physical possession of the PM do not settle with certificates.
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Old 12-03-2011, 02:45 PM   #62
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JonM,

While I am a proponent of PM...I also believe Real Estate is a better investment if you can afford it. It is one of my goals to have some rental prooperties in the future.

I am also with BKT about having physical possession of the PM do not settle with certificates.
I agree. The key to metal ownership is physical possession. Real estate is all about location and demand. Buying land in a swamp is a little difficult to resale while buying waterfront propeety on a resort lake is easy...

The main issue with real estate is upkeep and taxes. You need to be able to offset the taxes and cost issues by making it work to pay for itself or its no diff than buying us dollars.

If your able to offset the costs real estate is more stable than metals. Even though the claim is on paper no one can exactly stick it in a suitcase and make off with it.

Right now the dollar does have value and its decreasing everyday but metals are still extremely over valued. Im just saying there is better ways to preserve wealth than buying metals at this moment. Most of those ways just take a lot more effort.

On another note. When this economy collapses its taking the rest of the world withit. Including china. The chinese economy is more dependent on the us economy continuing to purchase their crap than we are on foreign oil. Its the main reason that threats of revoking the dollar as reserve currency is pure bullsht. When the dollar and our economy goes tits up its shtf time world wide.

We either feed the rest of the world or buy their goods. Or both. Like it or not american consumerism is what keeps therest of the world running. There is only one country we dont trade with in some fashion and its north korea and the people there resort to cannibalism to survive the winters... want to see the future when gingrich/romney/obama finishes off the destruction of the usa?? just look to north korea.
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Old 12-03-2011, 03:06 PM   #63
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I divested my holdings in us currency two years ago and bought a second home and rented it out. Been buying guns as well because i like them mainly and they retain their value fairly well.

The problem with precious metals is you generally arent buying the metal itself your buying paper stock with claim to an ounce of gold held somewhere else. For that to work you have to trust that the corporation where ever it is will remain friendly to the usa in shtf times.

Having it in actual bars in your possession becomes a problem with storage. In shtf times transporting large amounts of a PM becomes a real hazard.

In times of real trouble like we are facing gold stock certificates are like the us dollar, about worth the paper its printed on.

If you dont mind carting around gold coins or ingots and providing your own security go for it. Im just tossing out my logic on it.

This isnt a normal problem we face the us debt is possibly an extinction level event due to the technological level we have wherethe vast majority of people think grocery stores are where meat and veggies come from and have never seen a fish or rabbit or deer killed and cleaned

If the economy breaks like its almost assured to do with the likes of gingrich romney or obama being the next president, US production and export of food halts with the breakdown of our economyand society. 30 days later mass amounts of people world wide start starving to death include most of america
The economy is past the point of no return. It is no longer possible to pay off the debt without a major devaluation of the dollar. Obama is trying to collapse the economy so he can set up a socialist government. Once everyone is dependent on the government it is done and we are half way there. If Obama is re elected we will no longer be a free country by 2016 provided the country can be held together for that long. We will probably be under martial law or at least a police state by then. Conservative political activists and gun owners will be interned in concentration camps. Most of you wont have to worry about your parents any longer as Obamacare was designed to eliminate a large portion of the seniors by denying health care. That is his plan to fix social security and medicare if they still exist.
Electing a Rino may slow the decline long enough to get a Reform Party going with solid candidates for ALL elected offices. The whole government has to be replaced and all the perks eliminated. Strict term limits have to be imposed.
If there is a total meltdown, your best bet will be essentials. The stuff you need to survive. Gold cant be eaten and it is a high denomination but it will have value during a possible recovery. Silver coins would be more spendable once things settled down some however essentials would have barter value during the meltdown. Your chances of going it alone are poor unless you are so remote no one can find you. In rural or semi rural areas small livestock would be a major asset. Booze is always a valuable commodity as is ammo. You would need group support to protect those assets.
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Old 12-03-2011, 08:40 PM   #64
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The economy is past the point of no return. It is no longer possible to pay off the debt without a major devaluation of the dollar. Obama is trying to collapse the economy so he can set up a socialist government. Once everyone is dependent on the government it is done and we are half way there. If Obama is re elected we will no longer be a free country by 2016 provided the country can be held together for that long. We will probably be under martial law or at least a police state by then. Conservative political activists and gun owners will be interned in concentration camps. Most of you wont have to worry about your parents any longer as Obamacare was designed to eliminate a large portion of the seniors by denying health care. That is his plan to fix social security and medicare if they still exist.
You really believe all of that?
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Old 12-03-2011, 10:48 PM   #65
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You really believe all of that?
In 2014 to come in after the election medical care for seniors over 76 will be severely restricted. " Seniors are using too much of our resources." Medicare insurance is scheduled to be $270 per month per individual and will be deducted from the Social Security payment. That means a couple that now has to decide to either eat or medicate will not be able to medicate and probably not eat either. Most of Obamacare was delayed so Obama could get re elected. You dont come up with a 1200 page law as devious as this one 2 weeks after the election and then ram it through before anyone can read it. Bribery was used to cram it down our throats. Did you know retired union members will be subsidized? AARP sold out its members for a $1 billion profit on its insurance. Their response is get over it. This law was extremely well crafted and will be very difficult to reverse. Senator Harry Reid bragged about fixing it so it cant be repealed.
Look at Obama's cabinet. Communists and Socialists. Have you read his wife's thesis? Have you read anything either one of them has written? He and everyone associated with him are dangerous to our freedom. Look at some of the laws the administration is pushing. Warrant-less arrest and indefinite detention are on the agenda. He is pushing for the Small Arms Treaty which will destroy our Second Amendment and give up our sovereignty to the UN. Next on the UN agenda is to make us subject to the World Court. The push on climate change is an attempt to get a UN Tax Authority which establishes the UN as the World Government.
You may think I am nuts but I have been following Obama since he became a serious candidate and I have not been mistaken yet. He has run up the debt to the point it can no longer be paid without devaluation. It is a lot higher than the $14 trillion dollars that is being claimed. The books have been cooked and it is not good.
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Old 12-03-2011, 10:58 PM   #66
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+1 totally agree
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Old 12-04-2011, 05:15 AM   #67
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You may think I am nuts but I have been following Obama since he became a serious candidate and I have not been mistaken yet. He has run up the debt to the point it can no longer be paid without devaluation. It is a lot higher than the $14 trillion dollars that is being claimed. The books have been cooked and it is not good.
Well, since you asked, Yes, I do think you are nuts.

Actually I think you're just angry and are looking for someone and/or something tangible to blame. It's understandable if not logical.

The debt has increased since Obama has been in office but it is not 'his' debt that will cause the devaluation. The biggest recent increase to the debt was in George the II's administration. It was the two wars, the auto industry bailouts, and the prescription drug plans, among other things. It really dwarfs Obama's. George II also gave us the financial industry bailout but as it turns out we made money on that one, or at least the government did anyway, so that one shouldn't count. The only recent administrations that did not increased the debt were George the I's & Clinton's. All the others have their hands dirty, but George II's are dirtiest.

The developed nations are in a world wide economic crises because of:
longer lives due better health care;
fewer caregiver children causing increasing demand for aging social services due to lower birthrates;
diminishing cheap energy due to having picked all the low hanging fruit;
living beyond our means due to easy unsecured credit;
computer technology eliminating massive amounts of jobs;
and most recently to wealth created without anything being produced or needed in return.
There are many, many other factors and it has been building up for for many, many years, and now it's time to pay the bill. We shouldn't blame the current store clerk.

Ascribing an 'evil' intent and subsequent actions by the current crop of elected 'representatives' as the major cause of our malaise is beyond the pale. Do you really believe they are that competent? You are giving them way more credit than they deserve. I think it is false to think Obama, or anyone else, is doing anything more than just trying to hang on the tail of the tiger.

The only question is; Are we in for a hard ten or fifteen years as a new economy develops, or are in for something more abrupt, painful and possibly violent.
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Old 12-04-2011, 07:46 AM   #68
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It's now over $15,000,000,000,000. This fool will throw money in every direction to lower the debt, "surprisingly" that method isn't working very well. If that stupid Hawaiian was a doctor he'd try to save someone from bleeding to death by giving him more blood.
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Old 12-04-2011, 04:58 PM   #69
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Well, since you asked, Yes, I do think you are nuts.

Actually I think you're just angry and are looking for someone and/or something tangible to blame. It's understandable if not logical.

The debt has increased since Obama has been in office but it is not 'his' debt that will cause the devaluation. The biggest recent increase to the debt was in George the II's administration. It was the two wars, the auto industry bailouts, and the prescription drug plans, among other things. It really dwarfs Obama's. George II also gave us the financial industry bailout but as it turns out we made money on that one, or at least the government did anyway, so that one shouldn't count. The only recent administrations that did not increased the debt were George the I's & Clinton's. All the others have their hands dirty, but George II's are dirtiest.

The developed nations are in a world wide economic crises because of:
longer lives due better health care;
fewer caregiver children causing increasing demand for aging social services due to lower birthrates;
diminishing cheap energy due to having picked all the low hanging fruit;
living beyond our means due to easy unsecured credit;
computer technology eliminating massive amounts of jobs;
and most recently to wealth created without anything being produced or needed in return.
There are many, many other factors and it has been building up for for many, many years, and now it's time to pay the bill. We shouldn't blame the current store clerk.

Ascribing an 'evil' intent and subsequent actions by the current crop of elected 'representatives' as the major cause of our malaise is beyond the pale. Do you really believe they are that competent? You are giving them way more credit than they deserve. I think it is false to think Obama, or anyone else, is doing anything more than just trying to hang on the tail of the tiger.

The only question is; Are we in for a hard ten or fifteen years as a new economy develops, or are in for something more abrupt, painful and possibly violent.
You are right about all the factors except one. Obama is not holding on to the tigers tail, he is holding on to the reins and guiding the tiger. Our Treasonous Congress has aided him in bringing the country to its knees. We have nothing but a dog and pony show going on in Washington. This was posted in the Legal and Activism section. It spells the end of the Constitution and the end of the USA as we know it. If this becomes law, We will no longer be free. The camps are already in place. Look up General Pike from the civil war. What you find will surprise you.
Deep inside the National Defense Authorization Act (S. 1867) that the Senate is currently considering is a dangerous and unconstitutional portion that needs to be stripped out. Congress would grant the President the power to use the military in order to detain certain individuals, including American citizens, without trial or due process, indefinitely.

Section 1031 of the National Defense Authorization Act reads: "Congress affirms that the authority of the President to use all necessary and appropriate force ... includes the authority for the Armed Forces of the United States to detain covered persons.... [including] [d]etention under the law of war without trial...." This "indefinite detention" section hands over to the Executive Branch the power to have the military arrest U.S. citizens. No trial needed. Simple suspicion would suffice.

This could be quite reminiscent of Stalinist Russia where a knock on the door in the middle of the night meant that the person taken by the military was often never seen again, perhaps having been imprisoned in Siberia or executed. The Japanese American Citizens League has warned that this measure's detention principles are similar to the ones that sent innocent Japanese-Americans into concentration camps during WW II.

Sadly, this bill has already been passed in the Republican-controlled House of Representatives with nary a whimper by a 322-96 vote. The excuse given for such an egregious disregard for the Constitution by supporters of the bill including authors Senators John McCain (R- Ariz.) and Carl Levin (D-Mich.) is that the provision would strengthen and codify the legal framework necessary for dealing with "terrorists." Other supporters insist that the language doesn't necessarily include American citizens.

U.S. Rep. Justin Amash (R-Mich.) who voted against the bill in the House, thinks differently. Amash says the act would indeed "permit the federal government to indefinitely detain American citizens on American soil, without charge or trial, at the discretion of the President." He notes that the language "does not preclude U.S. citizens from being detained indefinitely, without charge or trial, it simply makes such detention discretionary," therefore it is misleading and outrageous.

Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) is speaking out in opposition to the "indefinite detainment" provision of S. 1867. He is also offering an amendment that would simply strike out Section 1031 of the bill. As this alert is being written on November 29, the Senate is debating S. 1867 and could vote on the Paul amendment this evening or tomorrow, November 30. A related amendment by Senator Udall to revise the detainee provisions of S. 1867 has already been defeated today by a vote of 37 yeas and 61 nays.

Indefinite detention without due process leaves citizens without the legal protection of the Constitution and strikes at the heart of the essence of U.S. law. It is positively shameful that any elected representative would even consider voting for such an assault on so sacred a fundamental value as the right to due process.

Far too much power has already been either usurped or given over to the Executive Branch under the guise of national security. Contact your Senators immediately and demand that they safeguard individual freedom and liberty by upholding the protections guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. Have them support the Rand Paul amendment that would completely strike Section 1031 from S. 1867, or any other amendment that would accomplish the same purpose.

If one or more amendments are added to S. 1867, it will likely go to a conference committee and then return to both the House and the Senate for a final vote. So, a word to your Representative on this issue is also advised. Make sure you find out how he or she voted on the NDAA before getting in touch.
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Old 12-04-2011, 06:00 PM   #70
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. . Obama is not holding on to the tigers tail, he is holding on to the reins and guiding the tiger. . .
Obama didn’t want this and wasn’t going to sign it if it passed, and besides it didn’t pass. See:
http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f13/senate-moves-allow-military-intern-americans-without-trial-52458/index3.html
Page 3, Post #23

And if it did, here’s how I thought it would go:
http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f13/senate-moves-allow-military-intern-americans-without-trial-52458/index2.html
Page 2 post #13

You are right about the dog & pony show.
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