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Old 12-06-2009, 01:59 PM   #11
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Fall out shelters? Has this country regresses to the rampant paranoia of the fifties when everyone and his brother were building bomb shelters? Have people subscribed to the manufactured fears promulgated by the media and the right wing oracles of doom? Who do we have to arm ourselves against? Certainly there are bad guys out there but what are the chances that one might run into one? For too damn many years I worked the mean streets of a major metropolitan center and yes there are real dangers lurking around every corner that a person is wise to protect him or herself against there. Out side of places like that violence is a random act and the average citizen’s chances of encountering it are minuscule. At the age of 72 what I fear most is the malignant stupidity that engulfs this nation today. I also fear the drunken drivers and the Dirty Harry want-to-be who insists on carrying a hand cannon as they go about their daily lives. I fear those who believe, deep in their hearts, that everyone else should think, believe, live and act as they do.

I do not intend to argue politics with you but the country is not the "safe" place it used to be. I can see it in my small town. We had an officer killed in the line of duty last year. That had not happened in the last 40 years. Six officers have been shot in the line of duty in the past two years.

Maybe a fall out shelter is overkill but carrying a concealed weapon is not paranoia.
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Old 12-06-2009, 02:19 PM   #12
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I don't believe a classical nuclear exchange is likely at all. However, a nuclear attack on this country is becoming as likely as it was in the 50s if not more so. That is not "malignant stupidity", but a knowledge that unstable countries or at best stable countries with unstable leaders are building nuclear capabilities. Also dirty nuclear weapon does not require all the refinement that Iran is going through. They want to be able to launch. The process wrapping a bunch of radioactive waste around a truck bomb is relatively simple.

Wally, you don't have to think as I do. You seem to be the one talking down to anyone that doesn't agree with you.

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Old 12-06-2009, 02:24 PM   #13
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Fallout is primarily alpha and beta particles. Alpha is stopped easily by your skin, and beta is easily stopped by thick clothing. The primary hazard is to internal organs from inhaling or ingesting these particles. So a good filtration system would do you best in any fallout shelter. But you best make it so you can easily clean out any filters because they tend to get clogged quickly from fall out. Gas masks are not a great idea when dealing with alpha and beta for the same reason. The publications actually recommend that you use a damp rag in place of your mask when dealing with radiation.

Gamma radiation is your big concern when it comes to fallout shelters. This happens during the initial blast, and can continue by the irradiated substances near the epicenter of the blast. Gamma can penetrate many feet of concrete and dirt depending on the strength of the source.

Yes it would behoove you to have a hardened shelter underground to deal with the initial blast and pressure wave, and initial gamma burst.

Also remember that because of the Mach effect, the pressure wave will be stronger at distance than close up to the blast. So just because your house was far enough away from the blast to not be burnt up doesn't mean it will continue to stand.

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Old 12-06-2009, 03:39 PM   #14
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I don't believe a classical nuclear exchange is likely at all. However, a nuclear attack on this country is becoming as likely as it was in the 50s if not more so. That is not "malignant stupidity", but a knowledge that unstable countries or at best stable countries with unstable leaders are building nuclear capabilities. Also dirty nuclear weapon does not require all the refinement that Iran is going through. They want to be able to launch. The process wrapping a bunch of radioactive waste around a truck bomb is relatively simple.

Wally, you don't have to think as I do. You seem to be the one talking down to anyone that doesn't agree with you.
I don’t mean to talk down to anyone just remind them to do their own thinking. I try to speak from experience gained from a long life of seeking the truth and trying to live in reality. I abhor the thought that everyone would think and believe as I do but to me an intellectual debate between those holding different philosophies is the greatest instrument of learning available.
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Old 12-06-2009, 05:50 PM   #15
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I don’t mean to talk down to anyone just remind them to do their own thinking. I try to speak from experience gained from a long life of seeking the truth and trying to live in reality. I abhor the thought that everyone would think and believe as I do but to me an intellectual debate between those holding different philosophies is the greatest instrument of learning available.
Agreed. .
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Old 12-06-2009, 05:56 PM   #16
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It's definitely something to consider. There's nothing wrong with improving our chances.

Third world nutjobs have access to nuclear and or dirty bombs or materials. I have no doubt that there are nukes out there in terrorist land.
Suitcase nukes, anyone? There's so much of that stuff either missing, lost or stolen, that no place is truly safe anymore.

I'd rather be paranoid and alive.

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Old 12-06-2009, 07:13 PM   #17
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From what I understand the gamma radiation is the real problem but it does not last that long. A shelter to stay in for a week or two could be the difference between life and death....

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Old 12-06-2009, 07:33 PM   #18
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I agree with the need to have supplies on hand for the unexpected and unwanted things that may occur. Food, water, a source of heat, and about a dozen other things can help you deal with most eventualities. Nuclear defense is not something I am going to specifically plan for. Some things I will leave off my worry list and let a higher power (God) handle.

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Old 12-06-2009, 07:52 PM   #19
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Alpha and Beta are easily stopped (so long as you do not inhale particles) Gamma does have higher energies, but can be shielded against- and does not require multiple feet of lead, concrete, etc- dirt works pretty well- again- so long as you are not inhaling "hot" dust particles. There IS neutron radiation emitted at the instance of detonation that goes thru most things- but that is in a very small area. Fallout can cover thousands of sq miles, depending on yield of weapon, height of burst, and weather downwind.

Our shelter area is multi-use. Besides being the "man-cave", two of our kids rode out a tornado there that did damage to our home that took 5 months to repair. A "gas mask" may have limited ability to filter fallout particles- but a good respirator (there is a difference) with the right filter WILL do the job. Air filters getting fouled can be an issue- which is why pre-filters (see the HVAC aisle at Lowe's or Home Depot) are a very good idea.

Graduated from the US Army NBC Warfare School in 1970, and have stayed current since. Have a fairly good idea of the likely targeting list upwind from me. Do not like the concept of relying on the goodwill of groups like Al Queda, Shining Path, or whoever will be in charge of Pakistan in 10 years. I do know that following the breakup of the Soviet Union, we had to help them find where the hell all of their nukes WERE. Recordkeeping was really bad. One ICBM was found abandoned on it's transporter/launcher. The crew had not been paid in 6 months, they took their AK's and went hunting because they were hungry. Also do not expect home to catch fire today- but there are 20 lb ABC extinguishers in the shop, utility room, and garage.

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Old 12-06-2009, 08:49 PM   #20
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Gamma does have higher energies, but can be shielded against- and does not require multiple feet of lead, concrete, etc- dirt works pretty well- again-
The school house disagrees with you.

From the lesson plan currently taught at Leonardwood.
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Gamma radiation, similar to X-radiation (X-rays), is comprised of electromagnetic waves. It has an effective range in air of hundreds of feet, is highly penetrating, and cannot be completely stopped by a barrier.
From FMFM 3-7 page 4-0
GAMMA — Travels speed of light, cannot be totally shielded.

Now, where you may be mistaken is saying that you must have many many feet of concrete or earth to get below the LD/50 Say you have a dose rate in air of 2,400 cGy, from the same range, 24 inches of earth will give you a protection factor of 96, or a dose of 25 cGy.

Now as you know, radiation has cumulative effects. By the pub you should not receive more than 50 cGy over a one hour time frame, or 150 cGy over your lifetime.
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