Decentralized power. - Page 5
You are Unregistered, please register to use all of the features of FirearmsTalk.com!    
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > General Discussion Forums > Survival & Sustenance Living Forum > Decentralized power.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-06-2012, 01:22 AM   #41
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: wyoming
Posts: 1,799
Liked 61 Times on 55 Posts
Likes Given: 15

Default

The constant bitching about the oil compainies getting getting tax breaks. The oil exploration, Production etc provide over 4 million American jobs. The American Auto industry and Green energy provide very few jobs. The Federal Government has more workers than any energy company and produces zero. Attack the energy companies who recieve only 63 cents per Kilowatt hour. The Wind Energy gets 70 dollars from the taxpayers per Killowatt hour. The Fossill energy also pays much of the over head for Green energy. The real pain will come very soon as coal power plants are shut in. In order to support wind power you will have Brown outs an home electric rates will go up by 40%.
Durangokid is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2012, 01:26 AM   #42
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
dog2000tj's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,309
Liked 3740 Times on 1828 Posts
Likes Given: 13270

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chandler51 View Post
One mans "wanton waste of energy", is another mans DVD player, playstation, etc, etc. that's the problem. Who gets to decide?

The tech isn't there either, Dog....I'm a manufacturing supervisor. Let me tell you, the resources and time needed build the units, and to perform the conversions you speak of is DECADES. A wind turbine on every roof in NYC? The logistics alone would be a nightmare. Listen to the stories of what people have to go through just on their daily commute in a city of that size. What do you think putting that volume of construction there would do? Or for that matter, just moving the materials around. How many could even go up at the same time? Construction cranes would be needed for EVERY one. Putting turbines on rooftops like that would increase the already prohibitive costs exponentially.
Baseboard heating, heat pump exchangers and hot water heaters are some of the most inefficient methods used today, I would call that wanton waste of energy. The tech is here right now, it is the infrastructure that is/might be decades away. I commuted into NYC for years, my father for decades, I know what it's like - construction or not it will never get better until people change their attitudes towards mass transit. But because something is hard and will take a long time and cost lots of money we shouldn't invest in it?

By that reasoning we should never have gone into space or to the moon, hell we wouldn't have hardly any industry of any kind at all

Quote:
Originally Posted by W. C. Quantrill View Post
I'm in wind generator country, near me are thousands of wind generators, reaching half way across this state. Non of them will amatorize out without the government subsidy. I'm not going into it, it can be researched. The hinderance to wind power is transmission lines to carry the heavy loads. They are not there. The southern Kansas wind farms cant get the load out. They have been two years building a high capacity line from around Dodge City Kansas to around Hastings Nebraska, where it will hook into another major grid line. That electicity will then be sent down that existing line to St. Louis. That line exists, so they did not build a line east across the Ozark lakes, it was shorter to build to Nebraska. The cost has to be monumental. It is not quick and not cheap. That line passes just 3 miles from my house here.

Chandler, I was just down to Woodward and Liberal recently, and they are putting more towers up by Greensburg,,,as you say, two large construction cranes at each tower, and probably 25 towers going up at a time.....I wondered, "Who is paying for this?"
as I said earlier we wouldn't have a fossil fuel based energy system without subsidies either (that the Oil industry still receives btw). So why is fossil fuel considered untouchable when it comes to energy? I wonder who is paying for all the natural gas drilling that has sprung up in the past decade? I also wonder who will pay for the necessary clean up after the Oil and Gas industries have pumped the areas for all they can?

like I said, it's going to take a huge attitude change on the people's part otherwise we will be beholden to the Oil and Gas industry until it's all gone ... then we will be beholden to them for wind and solar and tidal energies ....

you starting to see a pattern here
__________________
Member: NRA GOA

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Est sularas oth mithas

"either way, you were guilty by association, so you were smited...." JD
dog2000tj is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2012, 01:30 AM   #43
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
dog2000tj's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,309
Liked 3740 Times on 1828 Posts
Likes Given: 13270

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durangokid View Post
The constant bitching about the oil compainies getting getting tax breaks. The oil exploration, Production etc provide over 4 million American jobs. The American Auto industry and Green energy provide very few jobs. The Federal Government has more workers than any energy company and produces zero. Attack the energy companies who recieve only 63 cents per Kilowatt hour. The Wind Energy gets 70 dollars from the taxpayers per Killowatt hour. The Fossill energy also pays much of the over head for Green energy. The real pain will come very soon as coal power plants are shut in. In order to support wind power you will have Brown outs an home electric rates will go up by 40%.
I endured brown outs and power stoppages in AZ for years when CA deregulated their energy industry. Up sprang all sorts of Energy companies - produces, transmitters, suppliers, brokers, you name it ... remember Enron?

Deregulation was supposed to be the next big thing, many states had de-regulation policies in the pipeline following Ca's example. Keep your mind closed and be beholden to Oil if you want to ...


people used to insist the world was flat too
__________________
Member: NRA GOA

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Est sularas oth mithas

"either way, you were guilty by association, so you were smited...." JD

Last edited by dog2000tj; 07-06-2012 at 01:32 AM.
dog2000tj is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2012, 01:37 AM   #44
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Vincine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Adirondack Mts.
Posts: 3,495
Liked 1912 Times on 990 Posts
Likes Given: 1456

Default

Its true; there are economies of scale for many things. If a city of 100k requires 1x for a service, a city of 200k may only require 1.5x to provide the same degree of service, not 2x.

However, what happens is WE become less and less able to manage increasingly larger systems. It gets to the point where the economies of scale, are lost to our inability to manage it efficiently. How many things could you do faster, better, and cheaper, were it not for various irrelevant and/or ineffective policies & procedures in place?

Lots of centralized systems are legitimately cost effective. Many centralized systems are only 'cost effective' because they have ‘externalized costs’, often to the taxpayer.

There are thousands of apartment buildings in NYC over 15 stories tall. I’d guess a few hundred over 30, if not more. Nice places for small turbines. Cooper Union put a horizontal one with a vertical axis on top of the engineering building. It turned a shaft that descended into a water tank, where rotors spun against calipers. The friction heated the water and the water heated the building.

Each day over a billion gallons of water flows through three aqueducts from reservoirs in the Catskills to NYC, another nice place for a turbine or two.

Lots of people have wood stoves or monitor heaters in addition to the standard oil fired furnaces. It seems to be cost effective despite the loss of some ‘economy of scale’. A small wind turbine on every rooftop shouldn’t be any more impracticable then every house having their an air conditioner, central or otherwise.

The point of decentralization is lots of options. Options give you independence.
__________________
"Sometimes I pretend to be normal, but it's boring and I go back to being me."
"You might as well be yourself, people won’t like you anyway."
"Tres verbo dictom"

Last edited by Vincine; 07-06-2012 at 12:20 PM.
Vincine is offline  
dog2000tj Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2012, 01:46 AM   #45
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Chandler51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: somewhere in....,Oklahoma
Posts: 2,185
Liked 62 Times on 51 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dog2000tj

Baseboard heating, heat pump exchangers and hot water heaters are some of the most inefficient methods used today, I would call that wanton waste of energy. The tech is here right now, it is the infrastructure that is/might be decades away. I commuted into NYC for years, my father for decades, I know what it's like - construction or not it will never get better until people change their attitudes towards mass transit. But because something is hard and will take a long time and cost lots of money we shouldn't invest in it?

By that reasoning we should never have gone into space or to the moon, hell we wouldn't have hardly any industry of any kind at all

as I said earlier we wouldn't have a fossil fuel based energy system without subsidies either (that the Oil industry still receives btw). So why is fossil fuel considered untouchable when it comes to energy? I wonder who is paying for all the natural gas drilling that has sprung up in the past decade? I also wonder who will pay for the necessary clean up after the Oil and Gas industries have pumped the areas for all they can?

like I said, it's going to take a huge attitude change on the people's part otherwise we will be beholden to the Oil and Gas industry until it's all gone ... then we will be beholden to them for wind and solar and tidal energies ....

you starting to see a pattern here
In Oklahoma, the Ok Energy Resources Board (private industry) cleans up the abandoned well sites. At their expense.

I'm not saying we shouldn't invest in energy, but there is a lot of untapped fossil fuel here. And cost, like it or not, is the primary driver. There is a reason that Boone Pickens has switched his focus from wind to nat gas....that reason is cost. It's easy to say what we should or shouldn't do...it's much more difficult in actual practice. I, for one, don't feel we need to sacrifice or outright abandon our way of life, in order to hasten the introduction of viable "green energy" technologies.

I don't live where mass transit is practical for more than a small percentage of the population. And frankly, I don't care to. I've lived in a city where mass transit was my primary mode of transportation, because it was more convenient than driving/parking a vehicle. IT F'ING SUX.

I've said my piece on it, and I respect you and your opinion, Dog. But I'm bowing out now.
__________________
"Life's tough. It's tougher if you're stupid." -- John Wayne
Chandler51 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2012, 02:01 AM   #46
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Vincine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Adirondack Mts.
Posts: 3,495
Liked 1912 Times on 990 Posts
Likes Given: 1456

Default

Among other reasons, it's because we don't have the power transmission infrastructure I’m advocating smaller household or community based systems. This is not wanted by those who would be receiving the '$70 per kilowatt' subsidies.
__________________
"Sometimes I pretend to be normal, but it's boring and I go back to being me."
"You might as well be yourself, people won’t like you anyway."
"Tres verbo dictom"

Last edited by Vincine; 07-06-2012 at 12:28 PM.
Vincine is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2012, 02:09 AM   #47
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: wyoming
Posts: 1,799
Liked 61 Times on 55 Posts
Likes Given: 15

Default

Oil drilling and production is 150 years old. These fields many still producing others were cleaned up by private funds. Oil production came about due to the high cost of Whale oil. Oil allowed the ordinary folks to have lights, jobs and automobiles. This Dooms Day scare about running out is a fairy tale. There are 100s of years of Natural Gas that will be used to off set any fuel shortages. Millions are being invested and jobs are being created today for the new NG plants and fuel service stations. You will be able to fuel your car from your home NG service with a $230 dollar compressor. New plants and projects being produced here in the western U.S. are 2 years away. This is being done with private dollars not Federal waste.
Durangokid is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2012, 02:13 AM   #48
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
dog2000tj's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,309
Liked 3740 Times on 1828 Posts
Likes Given: 13270

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chandler51 View Post
In Oklahoma, the Ok Energy Resources Board (private industry) cleans up the abandoned well sites. At their expense.
that expense is most certainly factored into the rates they charge customers (just as Con Ed does in NYC)

Quote:
I'm not saying we shouldn't invest in energy, but there is a lot of untapped fossil fuel here. And cost, like it or not, is the primary driver. There is a reason that Boone Pickens has switched his focus from wind to nat gas....that reason is cost. It's easy to say what we should or shouldn't do...it's much more difficult in actual practice. I, for one, don't feel we need to sacrifice or outright abandon our way of life, in order to hasten the introduction of viable "green energy" technologies.
and I am not saying we need to abandon or drop fossil fuels cold turkey. But we can definitely wean ourselves off of it (keep in mind, fossil fuels tapped here go into a global pool and are NOT reserved for US consumption). Pickens has switched to NG for cost but not the costs that you may think. It is easier for him to lobby Congress for legislation in favor of gas rather than wind. One reason is "out of sight out of mind" - if the environmentalists can't see it chances are they won't protest it. Case in point would be PA - everyone was all in favor of hydrofracking the **** out of the place, NY was just about to jump on board. Then they found out that fracking actually DOES contaminate groundwater ... imagine that, pumping millions upon millions of chemicals into the ground and the water table can get contaminated ... who would have thought? Humans can live without power, we cannot live without water

Quote:
I don't live where mass transit is practical for more than a small percentage of the population. And frankly, I don't care to. I've lived in a city where mass transit was my primary mode of transportation, because it was more convenient than driving/parking a vehicle. IT F'ING SUX.
mass transit has been the red-headed step child of transit methods here in the US for a long time. It takes longer to fly from NY to Boston yet people still choose flying everyday ... why? The same can be said about almost any 2 cities withing 4-6hrs of each other. Yet we don't invest in better rail lines or bus routes or ferries ... it makes no sense. BTW, I love rail travel so I could be biased against flying (with all that is involved)

Quote:
I've said my piece on it, and I respect you and your opinion, Dog. But I'm bowing out now.
I'm not trying to single you out or change your mind or beat you down, I respect your oprion and your postion. As I said, alternative energy will not provide a 1 stop/shop solution. But keep in mind that every single family household in the US could provide it's own power and hot water through the use of solar panels, wind turbines and geothrermal wells - thus resulting in every homeowner being completely energy independent under their own roof. All it would take is a change in attitude and some hard work.


just something to think about
__________________
Member: NRA GOA

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Est sularas oth mithas

"either way, you were guilty by association, so you were smited...." JD
dog2000tj is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2012, 02:45 AM   #49
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
hiwall's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cleator,AZ
Posts: 3,507
Liked 811 Times on 520 Posts
Likes Given: 249

Default

Living in AZ I checked into solar for my home. Even with you guys paying 2/3's of the cost of my solar it still is way to expensive and will never pay for itself. Never say solar to me as it only good for my motor home not my house. Wind is not practical here(and I heard not anywhere else either). Alternate energy is a great idea and the money we are spending on it should just be spent on research not on the bad old tech that we have now.
__________________
Just walking on the edge of of my grave.
hiwall is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2012, 02:58 AM   #50
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
dog2000tj's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,309
Liked 3740 Times on 1828 Posts
Likes Given: 13270

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiwall View Post
Living in AZ I checked into solar for my home. Even with you guys paying 2/3's of the cost of my solar it still is way to expensive and will never pay for itself. Never say solar to me as it only good for my motor home not my house. Wind is not practical here(and I heard not anywhere else either). Alternate energy is a great idea and the money we are spending on it should just be spent on research not on the bad old tech that we have now.
Here's the very first search response to solar panels/AZ - http://www.arizonasolar.com/ (took about 3 seconds)

$9100 for a 4kw+ system tied into the grid. The average home in AZ has an electric bill of around $150/mo or so? So that system would pay for itself in 61 months, provided it never generated more than you needed and was sold back to the utility company. (you can calculate your exact monthly cost by looking at your statement)

So you could have had complete electric independence from the utility company, the chance to sell power to them and return profit on the solar system after a little over 5yrs ... and you turned it down? Seriously, how much research could you possibly have done
__________________
Member: NRA GOA

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Est sularas oth mithas

"either way, you were guilty by association, so you were smited...." JD
dog2000tj is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
Power of a 22/250? kymike Ammunition & Reloading 8 10-30-2011 03:22 AM
Enough Power? PowderBurnBassist General Rifle Discussion 44 09-30-2011 05:28 AM
Very low power to moderate power scopes Marlinman Optics & Mounts 7 09-29-2011 03:03 AM
New (to me) Hi Power utf59 Range Report 7 07-02-2011 01:04 PM
To Much Power Woodsman The Club House 6 02-10-2009 01:27 AM