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Old 07-05-2012, 04:22 PM   #31
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. . . . A lack of diversity is a large problem...its one reason why we are where we are today with our dependence on oil, especially that from the Middle East. . . .
Outside of my belief we're are not now importing oil from the middle east (we have an energy surplus right now), it's 'our' energy companies that require Mid-east oil, to sell to our friends in Europe, and what Americans have been dying for (a 'stable' Europe). I do think it’s wise to spread energy production across many technologies so as to allow us to zig and zag as needed.
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Old 07-05-2012, 04:39 PM   #32
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Energy is energy and no matter how it is produced their will always be a workforce needed to build it, install it and maintain it. What is stopping these workers from working in a different field?

they may take up more room but it's not like there isn't enough empty space in the US to sustain them. But I will grant that 1 aspect of green energy, wind turbines, will not be enough to provide all the needed energy. But a combination of many sources - wind, solar, geothermal, hydro, would be more than sufficient.
So what about the places where those are not viable options? Not enough room in NYC for wind...you need to have water flow in order to harness hydro power, what about places where that's not available? If it takes a combination of all in order for it to work, you're gonna come up short in places. I guess that's fine, unless you live in a place like that.
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Old 07-05-2012, 05:06 PM   #33
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Interesting article on wind and the benefits and problems associated.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/science/earth/batteries-on-a-wind-farm-help-control-power-output.html

Another article that demonstrates the issue is not generating the power it's transmitting it and how difficult it is to get large scale change because of multiple layers of regulations and governments and companies trying to maximize profit. Cheaper power lowers profits.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/27/business/27grid.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&sq=wald%20maple%20ri dge%20wind&st=cse&scp=1
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Wind advocates say that just two of the windiest states, North Dakota and South Dakota, could in principle generate half the nation’s electricity from turbines. But the way the national grid is configured, half the country would have to move to the Dakotas in order to use the power.

“We still have a third-world grid,” Mr. Richardson said, repeating a comment he has made several times. “With the federal government not investing, not setting good regulatory mechanisms, and basically taking a back seat on everything except drilling and fossil fuels, the grid has not been modernized, especially for wind energy.”
While decentralizing power is a good idea the reason it has not been implemented is economy of scale. We don't all run our own generators because it's cheaper and much more efficient to have 1 giant generator than 20,000 small ones. I believe the same is true of wind. If these numbers are correct it shows why wind farms are better than individual homes having a wind turbine. A 10m diameter wind turbine can produce up to 25kW but if you get a 40m version you can output up to 500kW making it much more efficient but also much more expensive to buy.
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Old 07-05-2012, 09:36 PM   #34
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So what about the places where those are not viable options? Not enough room in NYC for wind...you need to have water flow in order to harness hydro power, what about places where that's not available? If it takes a combination of all in order for it to work, you're gonna come up short in places. I guess that's fine, unless you live in a place like that.
There is loads of room in NYC to implement alternative power generation ... the rooftops of every single building could be used to generate power using wind turbines and/or solar panels (btw - at altitude, wind is almost constant even if it is stagnant at ground level). There is also the option of hydro power through the use of tidal generators in the rivers around NYC, here's one such example being studied - http://www.nytimes.com/1985/04/14/nyregion/east-river-tides-to-run-electrical-generator.html

There are also studies out there that show reduced heat gain and energy consumption just by using a white colored roofing material. Other studies show reduced heat gain and energy loss when implementing a green roof system. An exercise I studied in school showed the same results just by altering the position of a building slightly of a N-S axis by 13degrees.

Reduced heat gain and energy consumption = less energy required = less power generation.

As I said before I don't believe that there is a 1 stop/shop fits all solution to energy. But people need to start looking/thinking outside the box and break their ignorance on the idea that only power plants and our current method of distribution are the only option.
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Old 07-05-2012, 10:47 PM   #35
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Dog, no-one even in the administration makes the argument you do about providing enough energy thru gree-energy sources. They just undermine the ones we have now.
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Old 07-05-2012, 11:28 PM   #36
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Dog, no-one even in the administration makes the argument you do about providing enough energy thru gree-energy sources. They just undermine the ones we have now.
Of which I concur is not right either. There is enough wind activity in N and SD to power the entire US, enough solar energy in NV to power the entire US (In one second, our sun produces enough energy for almost 500,000 years of the current needs of our so-called civilization), enough tidal force of the coast of the US in the north Atlantic to power the entire US (this one is constant and would not require fossil fuel back up).

The logistics to overcome are harnessing and transmitting as well as back up for shortages and spikes. Alternative energy can very well be the dominant form of energy production with fossil fuels used to supplement. But in order for that to happen a major cultural change will have to occur in peoples attitudes and dogma regarding the use of fossil fuels and wanton waste of energy
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Old 07-05-2012, 11:50 PM   #37
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"Of which I concur is not right either. There is enough wind activity in N and SD to power the entire US, enough solar energy in NV to power the entire US (In one second, our sun produces enough energy for almost 500,000 years of the current needs of our so-called civilization), enough tidal force of the coast of the US in the north Atlantic to power the entire US (this one is constant and would not require fossil fuel back up).

The logistics to overcome are harnessing and transmitting as well as back up for shortages and spikes. Alternative energy can very well be the dominant form of energy production with fossil fuels used to supplement. But in order for that to happen a major cultural change will have to occur in peoples attitudes and dogma regarding the use of fossil fuels and wanton waste of energy"

What you say is all possible. But the cost would be HUGE
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Old 07-05-2012, 11:54 PM   #38
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"Of which I concur is not right either. There is enough wind activity in N and SD to power the entire US, enough solar energy in NV to power the entire US (In one second, our sun produces enough energy for almost 500,000 years of the current needs of our so-called civilization), enough tidal force of the coast of the US in the north Atlantic to power the entire US (this one is constant and would not require fossil fuel back up).

The logistics to overcome are harnessing and transmitting as well as back up for shortages and spikes. Alternative energy can very well be the dominant form of energy production with fossil fuels used to supplement. But in order for that to happen a major cultural change will have to occur in peoples attitudes and dogma regarding the use of fossil fuels and wanton waste of energy"

What you say is all possible. But the cost would be HUGE
and the cost of the current system in place wasn't/isn't? How many millions are wihtout power right now because some WIND knocked out power lines? (see the irony here ) Reverse the roles of fossil fuels and wind - people would still have power and if needed could have supplemented it with fossil fuel power generation. And don't forget that the Oil industry received huge subsidies at it's beginning ... and it still receives those subsidies today. While Exxon posts record profits quarter after quarter


as I said, people need a serious change in attitude about how they get and consume power
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Old 07-05-2012, 11:57 PM   #39
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Of which I concur is not right either. There is enough wind activity in N and SD to power the entire US, enough solar energy in NV to power the entire US (In one second, our sun produces enough energy for almost 500,000 years of the current needs of our so-called civilization), enough tidal force of the coast of the US in the north Atlantic to power the entire US (this one is constant and would not require fossil fuel back up).

The logistics to overcome are harnessing and transmitting as well as back up for shortages and spikes. Alternative energy can very well be the dominant form of energy production with fossil fuels used to supplement. But in order for that to happen a major cultural change will have to occur in peoples attitudes and dogma regarding the use of fossil fuels and wanton waste of energy
One mans "wanton waste of energy", is another mans DVD player, playstation, etc, etc. that's the problem. Who gets to decide?

The tech isn't there either, Dog....I'm a manufacturing supervisor. Let me tell you, the resources and time needed build the units, and to perform the conversions you speak of is DECADES. A wind turbine on every roof in NYC? The logistics alone would be a nightmare. Listen to the stories of what people have to go through just on their daily commute in a city of that size. What do you think putting that volume of construction there would do? Or for that matter, just moving the materials around. How many could even go up at the same time? Construction cranes would be needed for EVERY one. Putting turbines on rooftops like that would increase the already prohibitive costs exponentially.
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:37 AM   #40
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I'm in wind generator country, near me are thousands of wind generators, reaching half way across this state. Non of them will amatorize out without the government subsidy. I'm not going into it, it can be researched. The hinderance to wind power is transmission lines to carry the heavy loads. They are not there. The southern Kansas wind farms cant get the load out. They have been two years building a high capacity line from around Dodge City Kansas to around Hastings Nebraska, where it will hook into another major grid line. That electicity will then be sent down that existing line to St. Louis. That line exists, so they did not build a line east across the Ozark lakes, it was shorter to build to Nebraska. The cost has to be monumental. It is not quick and not cheap. That line passes just 3 miles from my house here.

Chandler, I was just down to Woodward and Liberal recently, and they are putting more towers up by Greensburg,,,as you say, two large construction cranes at each tower, and probably 25 towers going up at a time.....I wondered, "Who is paying for this?"
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