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Old 07-07-2013, 09:08 PM   #61
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There are many things that concern me. EMP is definitely NOT one of them.
I agree. The odds are against an EMP event. Certainly possible but (I feel and hope) unlikely.
Much more likely IMHO-----------
economic collapse
martial law
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Old 07-07-2013, 09:31 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by hiwall
locutus-
I agree. The odds are against an EMP event. Certainly possible but (I feel and hope) unlikely.
Much more likely IMHO-----------
economic collapse
martial law
Just out of curiosity lets say we're all at work while the economic collapse starts. (Stock market bottoms out in one day lets say and people start freaking out) How much time would we have before the chaos hits? Hours, days, weeks?
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Old 07-07-2013, 10:06 PM   #63
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Just out of curiosity lets say we're all at work while the economic collapse starts. (Stock market bottoms out in one day lets say and people start freaking out) How much time would we have before the chaos hits? Hours, days, weeks?
Depends on how close you pay attention. I bet there are people who would never notice.
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Old 07-07-2013, 10:39 PM   #64
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EMP doesn't just kill microchips.

When EMP was "discovered", the contemporary electronics of the time were damaged. That would have been variable state electronics, better known as tube technology.

The problem with EMP (solar CME or ionization from the resultant gamma rays from a nuclear UCR) is that the voltage is so high. In modern electronics, specifically integrated circuits, the gates between the micro components can become "fused" or melted from the heating that occurs.

Basically, an impulse of the magnitude associated with an air burst device or solar event could BBQ things like an alternator or electronic ignition. If you drive something like an all-mechanical diesel, the vehicle will be operable.

The question I have is this:

Even if you have an operable vehicle that survives the event, where are you going to drive it to given that all of the other vehicles will likely be dead and littering the streets, how are you going to refuel it, and what do you think the people who didn't prep are going to do when they see you driving around in your car while they are all walking? Gonna run them all over? Gonna shoot everybody?

Even if none of that was a problem, how much fuel can your vehicle carry? If you're carrying a bunch of extra fuel because you can't get it after the event, how much food, water, clothing, guns, and ammunition can your vehicle carry.

I guess it's not a big problem if you don't have to drive very far, but most gas stations use pumps with modern electronics in them.

My point is this:

While some people and some mechanical and even electrical devices will survive an EMP event, basic things like electricity, clean drinking water, sanitation services, and other things that are more important than EMP hardened bug out vehicles will be real problems. Leaving your home and everything you have to trek off into the woods after all hell breaks loose doesn't seem like much of a survival tactic to me, it seems more like a lonely place to die.

Just because you know how to hunt, fish, and fight off zombies doesn't mean you know what to do after you break your leg. Even if you do know what to do, how many people have an operating room in their bunker? If you get an infection after you run off into the woods, do you have the means to kill the infection? Infection, disease, and accidents killed a lot more of our ancestors than other people did. Things like tooth decay and basic hygiene and sanitation were the reasons most people in the middle ages didn't make it to 30.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that leaving society and retreating to your protective cocoon isn't going to improve your long term survival. You need your neighbors, you need your community, and you need America. Running away when something bad happens is a temporary fix at best. Eventually you're going to have to start fixing the problems.
The OP included the fact that you were miles from home when this event occurred.
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Old 07-07-2013, 11:36 PM   #65
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The OP included the fact that you were miles from home when this event occurred.
I guess I was trying to imply that most everyone will be walking or riding a bike, even if they do have an EMP hardened bug out vehicle.

Refineries are dependent on computers for controlling the refinement processes.

For all those that hate plastic, there's gonna be a lot less production for awhile after.

Look at the bright side, you won't have to worry about the NSA reading your E-Mail, writing cheques to anyone, or worry about identity thieves stealing your credit card information.

Speaking of which, I'd invest in an old fashioned cash register and start a bike repair business.

Anywho, the larger 1+Mt yield weapons that would really eff things up are pretty much a thing of the past. The increase in precision of guidance systems means that the overwhelming majority of the firepower would be directed at specific military targets worth nuking.

To wit, the TFW's (like Langley), SAC, NSA, CIA, NRO, MCRD, Benning/Jackson/Leonard Wood/Sill/Knox, various NAS commands, and naval bases would be targets for air burst (soft kill by disrupting communications and electronics). Hardened underground locations like the White House, Pentagon, and NORAD would be surface burst targets. The main use of airburst is against soft targets and targets susceptible to electrical disruption (like communications facilities). The surface burst would be necessary for the bunkers and missile silos. After that, POL production. You do that and you stop the war machine.

Of course there would be massive retaliation on our part, but life would never be the same afterwards... And on that note, that's a great reason for citizens of every nation to only elect people who are not interested in the untimely destruction of their country through war.

Nuclear war could and would be survivable for the majority of American citizens, but our nation and we, as individuals, have not properly prepared for the proposition.

If that's the kind of thing that keeps you up at night, there's lots of great info available to assist with surviving the aftermath.

Personally, I kinda think the global economy is like a real EMP, even though the mechanisms involved are entirely contrived. If people lose faith in the notional value system, better known as fiat currency, the effects could very well be more widespread and destructive than an EMP event. Whereas an EMP is a real and not contrived threat and has tangible inputs/events leading to causation and
can be easily rectified (If Iran was permitted to have nuclear weapons and decided to use them, in the future we would reasonably kill any religious nut(s) with nuclear weapons or not permit them to acquire nuclear weapons), the economic systems, particularly the monetary systems, are intangible and the causes of a collapse of the system are not necessarily rational (In other words, how rational is it that a finished good, commodity, service, or property was worth twice or half what it was the day before, even in a notional value system? If things have comparative worth, that is worth based on like kind good/commodity/service/property, is it in any way rational that a perfectly good one of those that was valued at X in a monetary system should be 1/2X or 2X in a very short time span, absent a most excellent reason for the valuation increase or decrease).

For example, Dell stock kept going up, the company had piles of cash, sales were brisk, and the structural integrity of the company was pretty solid to the point of exceeding guidance every quarter. However, all the "expert" analysts on TV kept poo-pooing it for months and magically one day the price started falling. The loss of value was entirely contrived, everything about the company was rock solid. Point is, it's a lot harder to reason with people in the face of events that have no specific rationale and I'd expect the results of an economic collapse to be just that. Problems with rape, robbery, murder, and obtaining the basic necessities for life would be much worse than an EMP. Basically, everyone is agreeing to suicide even though they could continue to live happy, normal lives as opposed to an EMP where a handful of bad actors could be determined to be the culprits.
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:15 PM   #66
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OP did you just read "One Second After"? Good book.

Anyway, I work 20 miles from home. I guess the walk would take about 10 hours. Since I read the above mentioned book, I would not waste any time screwing for home. At that point, my bigger concern would be the wife. She works further away, and in the city. (well "city", but more urban that where I work.) Also, she's not too, ummmm, aware....She's a teacher, and they as a group would probably spend the rest of the week trying everything they could think of to get their cars and phones working. ("Wait, put the battery in BACKWARDS, and stand on your head.") When I got home, I'd probably do what I could to get to the grocery store, to get what they had, immediately. I would show up with silver in hand, and armed. (Just for protection) Admittedly, we are not prepared for something like this.

The thought has crossed my mind that I could store food, but I'm not sure what to store. I don't really want to keep rotating a crap load of beans or rice, or whatever, and still haven't come to a decision on what keeps the longest, and is reasonably cheap.

It has also occurred to me to maybe find out what parts could be fried on out ATV in this instance, and procure and store these parts in a hardened container. Having an ATV running would be a HUGE benefit, but for the same reason could very well make you a HUGE target. I at least have the guns requirement for these situations mostly covered.

After all that, I'd try to go fetch the wife. One of her friends at work lives very close, and her husband also works very close. He is an ex Army Ranger. I should tell her to get her friend, and go to him, for the time being in a situation like this. Odd thing, though. He DOSEN'T have any guns. Used to, but sold them......

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Old 07-14-2013, 11:01 AM   #67
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Even if none of that was a problem, how much fuel can your vehicle carry? If you're carrying a bunch of extra fuel because you can't get it after the event, how much food, water, clothing, guns, and ammunition can your vehicle carry.

I guess it's not a big problem if you don't have to drive very far, but most gas stations use pumps with modern electronics in them.
Did you know that the fill holes at gas stations are mostly not locked, and once opened, (no special tools), are a direct shot into the product?

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Just out of curiosity lets say we're all at work while the economic collapse starts. (Stock market bottoms out in one day lets say and people start freaking out) How much time would we have before the chaos hits? Hours, days, weeks?
I'd venture a guess that you'd have more than hours, but less than days. I bet people WOULD go nuts right away, but they'd be trying repeatedly to make phone calls, and get their cars to work, fix the Playstation, call the cable and power companies, etc. You'd probably have some time to get to the grocery store and other important places if you payed attention and chose wisely. Besides the grocery store, the gun shop and hardware store would be on my list. Maybe Walmart. Problem is, how would you haul home everything you bought? This in and of itself would cause some logistical difficulties.....
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Old 07-14-2013, 06:09 PM   #68
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Did you know that the fill holes at gas stations are mostly not locked, and once opened, (no special tools), are a direct shot into the product?
What good will that do when there are so many disabled vehicles in your path?

Even if all the cars were moved off the road, how long will the remaining diesel last?

Would it be more useful to re-start civilization or worry about how much gas you can carry with you?

Personally, I would want to work within my neighborhood and community to get life back to "normal" as swiftly as possible. I'm thinking that would mean limiting distribution of diesel to trucks, trains, and ships to carry goods to the stores.
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Old 07-14-2013, 06:31 PM   #69
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The best preparation is knowledge, judgement and flexibility. Without these, no amount of hoarding will save you.

No fortresses are impregnable, no one knows the future and no battle plan survives the opening shots.

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Old 07-14-2013, 06:34 PM   #70
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The thought has crossed my mind that I could store food, but I'm not sure what to store. I don't really want to keep rotating a crap load of beans or rice, or whatever, and still haven't come to a decision on what keeps the longest, and is reasonably cheap.


I take a three part approach to storing food. The first "tier" of my food storage is simply to buy extra of what I eat, and each week replace what I eat, plus a little extra. This works well with canned goods, soups, etc.

Next, every so often I buy some Mason canning jars, and fill them with rice, beans, pasta, etc., and seal them with an oxygen absorber inside. This is a little more effort than can goods, but cheap.

Lastly, I have some Mountain House freeze dried food. This will last the longest, but it is also the most expensive; however, if travel is necessary, it is the most packable.
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