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Old 09-19-2013, 04:03 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper762
the "bread basket" is the stomach

the heart/lung area of which you speak is " the boiler room"

use correct terminology

speaking from experience.........i have shot a dozen whitetails in the boiler room at 25-250 yards with a 62gr sp .223 in which all fell dead in their tracks. Adequate
qft.........
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Old 09-19-2013, 05:59 PM   #52
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I have been hunting for a long time. I don't remember how young I was when I went on my first hunt. In the 80s I had a FFL. I hand picked two SKS's from the cases of rifles I sold during that time. The 7.62 x 39 and the 5.56 x 45 are very close in energy on the target, except the 7.62 x 39 knocks a larger hole in the target. Plus the 7.62 x 39 expands better and the bullet is more likely to stay together after striking large bones. I thought I had the perfect hunting weapon so I left my 30/06 at home for a couple seasons. I dropped plenty of deer in their tracks. I have also had to chase deer through the woods after making perfect shots. When I skinned the deer I discovered the bullet had went through both shoulder blades yet the deer still ran off. When I shoot a deer with a shotgun slug or an adequate rifle in the shoulder the deers front legs are paralyzed. After a couple more deer running off despite a perfect shot I retired the SKS.

Speaking from experience you are saying that an even smaller bullet is going to out perform the 76.2 x 39? I really have my doubts.

I am not one to drive people away from hunting. Hunting is an experience that everyone should enjoy in a responsible manner. I have let plenty of deer walk because they were heading right to a 14 year old kid. I am not trying to discourage anyone. But to claim that a cartridge that creates considerably less energy (around 500 ft lb) than a .243 is adequate is too far out there for me to comprehend.

I am only trying to get good information out there. I want everyone to enjoy their experience in the woods. Most of all I want everyone who puts in the time and energy to become a good hunter to harvest the deer he/she shoots. An adequate rifle/shotgun is first place to start.

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Old 09-19-2013, 07:29 PM   #53
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Statistics dont lie.........if im convinced.........thats all that really matters

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Old 09-19-2013, 08:33 PM   #54
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Statistics dont lie.........if im convinced.........thats all that really matters
Exactly. I guess someone should have told me the .223 was inadequate before I killed all those deer with it. Sierra Gameking 65gr and Federal Fusion 62gr. seem to work just fine and I would be willing to bet the Barnes X bullet works even better.

Never had one run more than 25-30yrds after being shot with a 223 and most of them was bang-flop. Fact of the matter is the 223 with proper bullet and knowing the calibers limitations (150yrds max) works just fine.
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Old 09-20-2013, 12:16 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Deer

Do you consider Hornady Ballistic tip ammo as crappy? FMJ/TMJ ammo will penetrate car parts. Do you plan to hunt with FMJ/TMJ ammo? I am not the only one that has seen quality bullets fragment when striking brush. Varmint hunters have all seen quality bullets disintegrate when striking a blade of grass.


Ballistic tip ammo will almost always fragment on contact with brush. This is common knowledge. It's why you don't fire into brush if you're using ballistic tip ammo. Even in a larger caliber, firing a ballistic tip through brush can cause it to expand or fragment prematurely and result in a shallow and smaller diameter wound cavity if the back side of the slug still strikes the target area. You want unethical? I'd call firing almost any ballistic tip ammo through brush unethical. They are usually designed to fragment on impact. When they IMPACT a twig they fragment. (DUH)

Varmint hunters use varmint rounds which are jacketed so light they have been known to come apart in barrels with 1:7 twists, or they use specially designed ballistic tip ammo. Varmint rounds are usually designed to fragment or rapidly expand on impact. When they IMPACT a twig they fragment or rapidly expand. (DUH) Which means its a bad idea to fire a VARMINT round through brush as well.

All the following rounds have been extensively tested for barrier penetration:

62gr Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3)
64gr Winchester solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B)
50gr TSX loaded by Black Hills
Speer 55 & 64gr Gold Dot JSP (5.56)
Federal 62gr Mk318 Mod0 (T556TNB1)
62gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3)
55gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical––LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle––P223T2)
Swift 75gr Scirocco
60gr Nosler Partition JSP
Remington 62gr bonded JSP
Federal 55gr TSX (T223S)
Speer 55 & 64gr Gold Dot JSP (.223)
Federal 62gr Fusion JSP

Results can be viewed here. We do not use FMJ at all unless its for plinking or practicing. We use federal bonded tactical for people and animals. We also use Barnes TSX but only for animals, Barnes' copper petals tend to sheer off in glass and metal so they're not ideal for people.

I have seen people take down whitetails with M193 and M855 which are both FMJBT. On both occasions the rounds were overkill and most of the far side shoulder had to be discarded. Would I hunt with that? Yeah if I didn't have anything else handy. But id prefer something that didnt tear the deer up so bad and leave little fragments in the meat. The flip side to milspec FMJBT is based on speed and yaw they sometimes do not fragment or tumble quick enough for whitetail resulting in a through and through .22FMJ diameter hole. But at closer ranges id be comfortable with it if I didn't have a better option.

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In a lot of states the .223 isn't considered as adequate for deer hunting. I have seen deer run for close to a mile after several hits in the breadbasket with a 223.
There are shot gun only states, states that do not allow buckshot, states that only allow you to carry one weapon at a time, states that regulate so steeply they make it nearly impossible to hunt, and states that will let you carry just about anything. State law is not an indicator of what works or does not work. It's an indicator that some fat politician didnt have anything better to do.

And the breadbasket is not a vital area.

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I belong to a club that drives deer with dogs. We have 35 dog owning members. Every year we have guests that show up with an AR 15. They shoot deer and hit them but the deer keeps running for another hunter to put the deer down with an adequate rifle or a shotgun slug. They cry that was my deer but the rule is if the deer is standing the last person to shoot it claims the deer.
Maybe they need to get better ammo or learn how to shoot if this happens as often as you claim it does. I've seen guys drop a deer in their tracks with a .223.

The OP isn't asking your opinion on a good 30-06 round. He's asking for opinions on a good .223 round.
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Old 09-20-2013, 02:01 AM   #56
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We also use Barnes TSX but only for animals, Barnes' copper petals tend to sheer off in glass and metal so they're not ideal for people.
Did not know that, that is good information.

What bullet in .224 diameter would you recommend for "social work"? Best
bullet available independent of twist rate (barrels can be changed) with a
5.56 NATO chamber.

TIA,
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Old 09-20-2013, 02:22 AM   #57
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Just a few things to say...

Running deer with dogs is NOT hunting deer. Its simply shooting them.

BTW, deer are very aerobic animals. That's why they can run far with parts of their circulatory system missing. That being said, I doubt very many calibers will drop a deer that's been running from a predator that's trying to kill it.

The .223 is fine for deer, as I've said before. As with all calibers, know the limits of yourself and your load.

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Old 09-20-2013, 05:02 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
Did not know that, that is good information.

What bullet in .224 diameter would you recommend for "social work"? Best
bullet available independent of twist rate (barrels can be changed) with a
5.56 NATO chamber.

TIA,
We don't use any .224. We actually don't use any of the modern PDWs or other experimental weapons at all. .308 or .223 with 14.5-18" barrels is all we have as far as rifles go. Federal LE is pretty much the standard here. Could you find any federal slugs to reload? I don't reload so I don't know for sure, but my understanding is that the federal LE ammo is restricted. Still if you could find some my uneducated guess is that'd be your best bet.
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Old 09-20-2013, 12:27 PM   #59
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Quote:
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Ballistic tip ammo will almost always fragment on contact with brush. This is common knowledge. It's why you don't fire into brush if you're using ballistic tip ammo. Even in a larger caliber, firing a ballistic tip through brush can cause it to expand or fragment prematurely and result in a shallow and smaller diameter wound cavity if the back side of the slug still strikes the target area. You want unethical? I'd call firing almost any ballistic tip ammo through brush unethical. They are usually designed to fragment on impact. When they IMPACT a twig they fragment. (DUH)
I didn't say I was deer hunting when I saw the ballistic tip fragment on a small limb. I made it clear in my earlier posts I have given up on deer hunting 30 years ago with a pea shooter.

While I was squirrel hunting I have literally killed dozens of deer with a 22LR and 22WMR but I sure don't consider either to be a deer cartridge. Everyone of those deer were taken at very close range with a head shot. This is the technique you should be using with a 223.

You might not think hunting with dogs is ethical. Millions of hunters across the southeast disagree with you. Farmers who let us hunt thousands of acres of land for free think dog hunting is the best thing since sliced bread.

In fact, at one time or another most of the farmers who let us hunt their land have leased land to stand hunters. The end result was the farmer getting a permit to kill 100's of deer that he had to leave laying in the field. A kill permit is not an extended deer season so none of the deer are legally taken out of the field. You can take deer killed with a kill permit during open deer season.

An adequate caliber will drop a deer dead in his tracks, even when being run by dogs. In the event things go awry and believe me they will, an adequate caliber will either knock the deer down or slow it down enough for a follow up shot.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bad_deer_cartridges.htm

http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/blogs/daniel-schmidts-whitetail-wisdom/whats-the-best-caliber-for-deer-hunting

http://www.imbmonsterbucks.com/info.php?id=150
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Old 09-20-2013, 01:29 PM   #60
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Quote:
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I didn't say I was deer hunting when I saw the ballistic tip fragment on a small limb. I made it clear in my earlier posts I have given up on deer hunting 30 years ago with a pea shooter.
Really? Because in reference to .223 ammo fragmenting on brush while hunting deer, I thought you said "Do you consider Hornady Ballistic tip ammo as crappy? FMJ/TMJ ammo will penetrate car parts. Do you plan to hunt with FMJ/TMJ ammo? I am not the only one that has seen quality bullets fragment when striking brush. Varmint hunters have all seen quality bullets disintegrate when striking a blade of grass."

And I thought I answered those statements quite adequately and included an entire list of .223 rounds that wouldn't fragment on twigs or car parts or anything short of concrete.

Quote:
You might not think hunting with dogs is ethical. Millions of hunters across the southeast disagree with you. Farmers who let us hunt thousands of acres of land for free think dog hunting is the best thing since sliced bread.
WTF? My dad hunted deer with dogs for years, it sounds like a blast to me. Nobody said it was unethical.

And again, the OP asked for the best .223 round for deer. Not the best caliber. Not reasons why he shouldn't use it.
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