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Old 09-12-2012, 01:06 PM   #11
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Food is positive feedback. I am not saying that strictly using simple verbal and physical praise is not a good way to train a dog. But I am saying that using treats does not automatically make them fat and lazy. And the transition from treats to praise is no more difficult than starting out with only praise.

Puppy comes when you call, you give a treat, pup consistently comes when you call, start petting them. Transition complete.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:11 PM   #12
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Food is positive feedback. I am not saying that strictly using simple verbal and physical praise is not a good way to train a dog. But I am saying that using treats does not automatically make them fat and lazy. And the transition from treats to praise is no more difficult than starting out with only praise.

Puppy comes when you call, you give a treat, pup consistently comes when you call, start petting them. Transition complete.
I have found in over 30 years of training dogs (English setters, German pointers, labs, huskys, Rotties, boxers and the occasional cat) that when done correctly, treats are NOT needed. Its all about the bond between trainer and beast.

Start young, make it fun for the dog, always end training session on a positive note and you will get positive results...no need to drag a pound of feed along for training time.

Hell one could say a damn shock collar is positive/negative feedback. But those things, IMHO, are a terrible training tool.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:24 PM   #13
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Shock collars, used properly for the proper reason on the proper dog can be a good tool and give great results. But you could never call it positive reinforcement.

As I said
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I am not saying that strictly using simple verbal and physical praise is not a good way to train a dog. But I am saying that using treats does not automatically make them fat and lazy. And the transition from treats to praise is no more difficult than starting out with only praise.
Oh wait, another fat and lazy dog that had treats used.


He went on to win the world championship that year, and I believe the next as well.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:27 PM   #14
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>>sigh<< and my point being...when training is done properly, there is no need for food reward.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:31 PM   #15
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>>sigh<< and my point being...when training is done properly, there is no need for food reward.
And my point is your own bias caused you to make a blatantly false statement.

In my nearly twenty years of breeding and training stock dogs, as well as protection dogs Ive found that the type of training needed depends more on the dog than the owner.

This guy was a regional champ in OK for bite work. He refused treats even as a pup.

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“If you are unwilling to defend your right to your own lives, then you are merely like mice trying to argue with owls. You think their ways are wrong. They think you are dinner.”

“Pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent."

“Not everyone is willing to embrace liberty; liberty requires not just effort, but risk. Some people choose to delude themselves and see their chains as protective armor.”
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Old 09-12-2012, 02:06 PM   #16
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And my point is your own bias caused you to make a blatantly false statement.

In my nearly twenty years of breeding and training stock dogs, as well as protection dogs Ive found that the type of training needed depends more on the dog than the owner.

This guy was a regional champ in OK for bite work. He refused treats even as a pup.

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Now THERE is something i will agree with you on...one MUST remain flexible when training...but "my bias" is not "blatantly false". i have simply found little or no need for treats. I have found it sets a bad precedent, I dont use it and have, as of yet, found no need for it.

My current field Champion...
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He has also earned himself quite the reputation in this neighborhood as a guard dog NOT to be trifled with.

A little story, one of MANY....

We had some illegals move into the apartment across from the back corner of the property. Instead of taking the alley, one illegal decided he would just cut thru our property. (we have a double wide/double long lot 50x 100 yds) One day, after being alerted by the Champ, who was on the back enclosed porch sunning himself, i barked at said illegal about private property and I didnt appreciate him cutting thru the yard. He jabbered something at me in his native tongue that i am sure was none to flattering.

After about 3 meeting like this, one day it just so happened i was out in the barn working on a project and i heard the beast raising cain. (hes always out with me and NEVER on a lead/leash/run) I look out and afore mention illegal is halfway up my black walnut in the middle of the property. It was amazing, said idiot rememberd how to speak english. He demanded i call off my dog. To which i responded, "you were told about trespassing, now you can sit and learn about american property rights." About every hour i would look out and see the Champ just lounging under the tree and illegal hanging on for dear life. 3 hours later i went up to the house and called the Champ off...not because I felt sorry for the illegal, but because i ran out of beer in the barn fridge and had to get some from the house.

::edit:: Thats a DERN good lookin' pup you have there!!!
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Old 09-12-2012, 02:08 PM   #17
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You said that training with treats will make a dog fat and lazy. That was a blatantly false statement.
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“If you are unwilling to defend your right to your own lives, then you are merely like mice trying to argue with owls. You think their ways are wrong. They think you are dinner.”

“Pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent."

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Old 09-12-2012, 02:11 PM   #18
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You said that training with treats will make a dog fat and lazy. That was a blatantly false statement.
In my experience, watching others use food as reward, this is what i have seen. I will NEVER recommend food reward as a training technique. Too many other ways to go about it to get the response you want.
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Old 09-12-2012, 02:18 PM   #19
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In my experience, watching others use food as reward, this is what i have seen. I will NEVER recommend food reward as a training technique. Too many other ways to go about it to get the response you want.
I am with FMJ on this one. We had dogs for years and we never used treats while training. Praise when acceptable, and punishment when necessary always worked fine for our english springers, and golden retrievers.

That said, there is nothing wrong with using treats as a motivator, i have a buddy with to pitbulls he used treats to train, and they are every bit as well trained as our dogs were. I think it really depends on the trainers preference.
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:58 PM   #20
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::edit:: Thats a DERN good lookin' pup you have there!!!
Thank you. He was one of those special dogs that you only find a few of in your life. A hundred and thirty pounds of mutt that originally came to us in a two pound bundle of starved bones.

But he is no longer with us.
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“If you are unwilling to defend your right to your own lives, then you are merely like mice trying to argue with owls. You think their ways are wrong. They think you are dinner.”

“Pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent."

“Not everyone is willing to embrace liberty; liberty requires not just effort, but risk. Some people choose to delude themselves and see their chains as protective armor.”

Last edited by Eturnsdale; 09-12-2012 at 04:00 PM.
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