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Old 11-07-2013, 08:09 PM   #51
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My deer hunting is almost exclusively with a muzzleloader. However, i have killed dozens of wild hogs using the .223. Some of those hogs weighed well over three hundred pounds. My favorite .223 bullet for hogs is the 55 grain Barnes Triple Shock. The petals of that bullet shred the heart and lungs of big hogs: It should work well on deer too.

Every year i track wounded deer and elk for other hunters. The vast majority of those animals are gut shot.

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Old 11-07-2013, 09:53 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by JimRau View Post
Amen! My experience exactly! But there are far to many people who refuse to listen to 'fact', they say 'It worked so it is the BEST gun to use'!
I guess because you don't like deer hunting with a .223 and are vocal about it whatever you say is fact. I don't think so. Who said it was the best caliber to use? Whether you like it or not .223 works just fine with the right bullet and shot placement. I guess you are confused.
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Old 11-07-2013, 10:03 PM   #53
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Unbelievable about what you blokes can shoot deer with.

In Australia the minimum allowable calibre to shoot deer is .243 for our smaller species(Hog deer, Fallow) and .270 minimum for the larger deer like Red and Sambar but most use at least a .270 to start with and anything upto .458 on the Sambar and Red deer.
It's also illegal in Alberta to hunt any big game with any .22 cal. Which means the .243/6mm becomes the smallest legal caliber that is permitted. The 22 calibers are reserved for varmints.

As for the .270 minimum, I think you've gone too far the other way. The 25-06 or 6mm are perfectly fine for our mule deer, which I believe are larger than your Red. A hunter who brought a .40+ caliber rifle for any of our large deer, including elk and moose, would want to keep it quiet to avoid loud guffahs.
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Old 11-08-2013, 04:32 AM   #54
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It's also illegal in Alberta to hunt any big game with any .22 cal. Which means the .243/6mm becomes the smallest legal caliber that is permitted. The 22 calibers are reserved for varmints.

As for the .270 minimum, I think you've gone too far the other way. The 25-06 or 6mm are perfectly fine for our mule deer, which I believe are larger than your Red. A hunter who brought a .40+ caliber rifle for any of our large deer, including elk and moose, would want to keep it quiet to avoid loud guffahs.
Plenty of deer get knocked over with .270,.308 30/06 and some of the bigger .30's as well plus your 25/06's and in some cases .303's. The use of .458's and calibres that big is mainly used by Sambar hunters in thick scrub as the 1st indication you've got that you've seen a deer is a loud "HONK!" and a brown backside disappearing into very thick scrub where a long shot could be as far as 20ft plus some of the scrub is virtually impenetratable so a hard hitting calibre is needed and Sambar are 1 very tough critter that like a lot deer can absorb a lot of lead if not hit properly.
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Old 11-08-2013, 01:34 PM   #55
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I guess because you don't like deer hunting with a .223 and are vocal about it whatever you say is fact. I don't think so. Who said it was the best caliber to use? Whether you like it or not .223 works just fine with the right bullet and shot placement. I guess you are confused.
Correct you are IF you are comfortable with the LIMITATIONS and WILL take only PERFECT SHOTS. Problem is MANY people get the wrong message when a general statement is made to the effect that a '243/223 are good/fine/great deer calibers'. If you take this on it's face it is untrue. If you explain the limitations you MUST adhere to if you use these calibers which use small, light, bullets with low SP's and BC's then what you say is true. MANY people who are not as informed and disciplined as most of us are read this stuff to get information, so we need to specific in our replies so we give them GOOD information.
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Old 11-08-2013, 01:55 PM   #56
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.223 was designed around the philosophy that you can put more rounds on target quicker than with a 7.62 NATO round, and carry 3 times the ammo for the same weight. In other words, a multiple-round affair in many cases. No one has ever pretended that it 'competes' with a heavier round for stopping power or holding it's power over distance. The fact is, with the AR craze, many guys love their guns so much they want to take a deer with it. And hence all the stories of 'head shots', 'perfect shots' etc. Where I live, a buck can easily pass 275 lbs and does can push 200 lbs. If you look at the map, you will see where the biggun's are. I hunt area 9. .223 is so not a good idea in area 9 or 23.....

Like my Dad used to say: "just because you CAN does not mean that you SHOULD"

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Old 11-08-2013, 02:24 PM   #57
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Every year i track wounded deer and elk for other hunters. The vast majority of those animals are gut shot.
I've done some of that myself. Not every year, but many times. My experience has been that a disproportionate number of those gut shot animals were shot with a .300 Magnum. Too many hunters compensate for lack of skill and practice by adding recoil and report - and then shut their eyes when they yank the trigger. So, in some ways, that speaks against using the latest firebreathing, big bore magnum that lobs thumb-sized bullets. Neither end of the spectrum is a good idea for most people, really.
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Old 11-08-2013, 04:55 PM   #58
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My experience has been that a disproportionate number of those gut shot animals were shot with a .300 Magnum.
That is my experience too. Here the second most popular gut shoot caliber is the 7 mm magnum. Watched a guy shoot a huge bull elk with a 7mm magnum: Saw dust fly when the bullet hit. The guy said he missed the animal and we had a short argument. As he drove off i told him i would be going after his elk. The hunter and his bud laughted. Blood tracked that elk for several hundred yards and found it dead. The so called elk hunter was at the game checking station when i checked in his elk. That guy was stone furious.

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Neither end of the spectrum is a good idea for most people, really.
Bingo!!
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Old 11-08-2013, 08:04 PM   #59
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Over the years I've seen the end result of a big calibre/bad shooter on animals like pigs and goats especially those that have survived the wounding and end up with a horribly busted up foot/leg or some other deformity and in the case of pigs 1 very cranky bit of critter that wanted to ream anything or anybody a new bum.

I've also shot pigs with a .22 in the head at close range because it was all I had in my hands and also with a .222 and although it stopped the pig it wasn't a 1st shot kill and took another 3-4 shots to finish it off not something I'm really chuffed with but it happened and I finished it off

I have lost a few animals over the years and tried to chase them up to do the right thing but they just disappeared...................andrenalin and fear does some weird things to animals and although solidly hit being a few inches off the mark does make a big difference as to whether you've got a long walk looking for a badly wounded animal or a walk up and a feed and happy snaps.

I'm not a keen fan of the Texas Heart Shot either as too many aren't hit in the right spot and it can end up as a gut shot critter and not as a anchoring shot to bust the hips.
I've shot a few pigs up the clacker with my 30/06AI but at least I had a projectile and calibre that had the energy to go in and bust anything up and the few that I've shot have been anchored long enough for a 2nd finishing shot.

At the end of the day a lot of wounded animals shot by hunters are probably from the fact that these blokes probably pull the gun out once or twice a year and don't get out to a range or busting fox's,rabbits etc on a regular basis to stay in touch with their guns.

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Old 11-08-2013, 09:19 PM   #60
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Here's my two cents. Any caliber firearm is capable of killing a deer, with proper shot placement. Some people feel they need the bigger rounds to kill the deer, and maybe they do. I shoot quite often, all of my rifles. I am confident in my abilities when I'm behind my rifle. A fusion bullet (223) at 100 yards has 900 foot pounds of energy. In my opinion, that has plenty of power to dispatch a whitetail at that range with proper shot placement. If you're going to hunt with a 223 then you need to be responsible enough to wait for the perfect broadside shot at reasonable ranges and patient enough to know that every deer you see isn't going tk be able to be harvested. If you do your part a good constructed bullet will do its part. Its simple in my opinion. If you're going to use one of the smaller rounds like a 223, be patient and wait. If you can't get a shot, watch the animal and enjoy the outdoors.

With that said, my howa 223 is sitting in the case ready to get the call to bring home the venison in the morning. I'll update and let everyone know about how the fusion msr round preforms from a 20" heavy barrel howa. Happy hunting :-)

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