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Old 07-15-2011, 10:26 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by lonewolf101 View Post
The 223 has a 1/9 twist so I can go up to 60, 65 grains but what I think I have to do is buy different weights and see what give me the TIGHEST GROUP.One guy at the range told me he had better groups with dogtown then v max but every gun different.
Lonewolf,you can shoot up to 69gr bullets with no problem out of a 1-9 twist.And Hornady also makes a 75gr BTHP match bullet for a 1-9 twist,I shoot them all the time out of my Savage 12.
The 55gr Dogtown bullets will serve you well,as will any of the VMax bullets.
I like the 60gr VMax over the 55gr,they shoot better out of my guns.
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Old 07-16-2011, 12:35 AM   #12
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I typically get 1/2" to 3/4'" groups using a 55 grain Nosler ballistic tip out of an AR-15.

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Old 07-16-2011, 02:58 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Txhillbilly View Post
Barnes Bullets are Copper,not a Steel core bullet.The ruling is for armor piercing rounds,not hunting rounds.
I don't think steel core was the issue with the ATF/Elite debacle. Elite was making brass bullets, which Barnes also makes (see Barnes Banded Solids). These are hunting rounds that are made of brass, not "armor piercing rounds". From what I gather, I believe this is exactly what Elite Ammunition was doing with .223, 6.8 and 6.5 rounds.

AFAIK, brass projectiles are fine for rifles and none of them were "armor piercing rounds" until the ATF decided that rounds in those calibers were handgun ammunition on one day and raided Elite's facility the next day. Jay Wolf claims that his customers who bought those brass rounds should not be surprised if the ATF visits them to retrieve unfired rounds.


You're right that the ruling is for armor piercing rounds and not for hunting rounds. The issue is that the ATF considers some .223 hunting ammunition to be "armor piercing handgun ammunition." It shouldn't be an issue with the TTSX rounds that OP is looking at (so long as Barnes doesn't add anything to the 100% copper recipe) but, as I said, it's just something for the OP and anyone else to keep in mind when looking at lead-free "hunting ammo." I would hate to hear about anyone being put in a bad situation for something so simple as wanting to try out Banded Solids versus TTSX rounds.
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Old 07-16-2011, 03:32 AM   #14
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just fyi

any projos sp, hp or fmj propelled at rifle velocities will penetrate armor vests.

such as single shot pistols in 223, 308, 30-06, etc.

but they are not considered as the prohibeted "armor piercing" ammo.

that law pertains to the teflon coated "cop killer" pistol bullets

black tip gi armor piercing 30-06 do not fit the prohibited ammo category even though they can be fired from some pistols

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Old 07-16-2011, 03:56 AM   #15
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part of the federal regulation dealing with "armor piercing" ammo

4) CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out
of one or more of the listed metals, or be a full jacketed type bullet
with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its weight. Thus SS109/M855
.223 (5.56mm) bullets would not be covered, because their core is only partly
steel, and partly lead. Lead is not a listed metal, and bullets with
cores made partly out of lead are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that
SS109/M855 bullets are not covered.

the ammo must be DESIGNED FOR PISTOLS not just capable of being fired in a pistol

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Old 07-16-2011, 05:23 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by sniper762 View Post
the ammo must be DESIGNED FOR PISTOLS not just capable of being fired in a pistol
That is not correct. The thread that I linked to earlier has the exact law quoted directly from the USC, '68GCA and other relevant documents which describe what "armor piercing" means. The document reads "Armor piercing ammunition. Projectiles or projectile cores which may be used in a handgun..." The thread also discusses the fact that the president of Elite Ammunition claims that he was shown a ruling by the ATF declaring .223 ammunition to be pistol ammunition. Granted, Mr. Wolf says they only let him look at it but not have any copies so it's not out there for people to see.

I think you may be referencing part (ii) of the below quoted code. Unfortunately, we don't get to pick and choose which parts we like. Barnes Banded Solids and those made by Elite are covered by part (i).



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Originally Posted by sniper762 View Post
that law pertains to the teflon coated "cop killer" pistol bullets
The law pertains to exactly the rounds that are specifically mentioned in the documents in the above mentioned thread. Namely:
Quote:
(17) (A) The term "ammunition" means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term "armor piercing ammunition" means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term "armor piercing ammunition" does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.


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Originally Posted by sniper762 View Post
black tip gi armor piercing 30-06 do not fit the prohibited ammo category even though they can be fired from some pistols
I think you could also be mistaken about this; they could fall into that category but they are specifically exempted:
Quote:
Exemptions: The following articles are exempted from the definition of armor piercing ammunition.

5.56 mm (.223) SS 109 and M855 Ammunition, identified by a green coating on the projectile tip.

U.S. .30-06 M2AP, identified by a black coating on the projectile tip.
They are specifically exempted from the definition precisely because the definition given may be read to describe them.




Once again, as solid copper projectiles, the TTSX rounds OP is asking about should not be a problem. I'm not trying to be argumentative or hijack/derail this thread, I simply made a comment in passing that perhaps attention should be paid to the legality of certain projectiles, namely the Barnes Banded Solid and other brass or alloy projectiles, in the caliber about which the OP asked about. If you have citations of existing laws that are somehow newer or otherwise supersede those which I've posted or if you see some way that either I, Jay Wolf or the BATFE have misinterpreted them, I would be happy to see them. Otherwise, posting things like that could be dangerous and may land someone in trouble.
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Old 07-16-2011, 02:06 PM   #17
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You two ladies need to go get a room. We are not talking about AP ammo. We are talking about bullets.

If you are wanting accuracy then don't buy the dog town bullets. Everyone I have ever seen that got some said the accuracy of them was POOR at best.

In my 2 223's I shoot either Sierra or Hornady V-Max bullets. My Remmy 700 VLS shoots .411" 5 shot groups at 100 yards with the 50gr V-Max. My RRA PPR shoots .6" 5 shot 100 yard groups with 60gr V-Max's.

Here is a 3 shot group out of the RRA.


Here is the .411" might have been smaller but it was windy.

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Old 07-16-2011, 02:42 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Txhillbilly View Post
Lonewolf,you can shoot up to 69gr bullets with no problem out of a 1-9 twist.And Hornady also makes a 75gr BTHP match bullet for a 1-9 twist,I shoot them all the time out of my Savage 12.
The 55gr Dogtown bullets will serve you well,as will any of the VMax bullets.
I like the 60gr VMax over the 55gr,they shoot better out of my guns.
Thanks alot for the info. I was wondering about dogtowns a guy at the range told he thought they were better then the v max but I will try Hornady 62 grain.
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Old 07-17-2011, 06:47 PM   #19
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lonewolf, shoot quality bullets. My .223 (M700 w 24"tube) likes 55 gr. VMax, 65 gr. Sierra SBT and 69 gr. Matchking. All will shoot 1/4 inch at 100 yds when I'm having a good day.

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Old 07-18-2011, 01:24 PM   #20
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When I put my order in I will try the 55gr v max also the 62 gr I think Hornady make em.

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