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-   -   What about off hand?? (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f48/what-about-off-hand-25128/)

MoAmmoPlease 03-24-2010 09:22 PM

What about off hand??
 
I'm just curious as to what is considered a "good" off hand group?? I'm not much of a shot and once my gun is off the sandbags my groups open up to an embarrassing level. :mad:
I've been shooting 35 plus years and still &%^* off hand. I know I am not alone because I watch the other guys at the club.
I guess I'm just discouraged cause I put on my game face a couple of days ago and went to the range with a braked Rem 700 in .308 and the best I could do off the bench was 3 inches and I wouldn't show you an off hand target. I know it's not the gun.
Whats the point of having a weapon that will shoot 1 MOA if you can't make it shoot 5 inches??

So tell me...Whats a good group offhand at 100yds??:confused: (scoped or iron)

skullcrusher 03-24-2010 09:43 PM

Not sure about competition, but for off hand at 100 yds anything within say the diameter of a pie plate would do enough damage to large game or zombie intruders to stop them.

Highpower 03-24-2010 11:03 PM

A NRA SR-1 target is used for reduced range (100 yd) Highpower matches during the off hand stage. It has a 6 3/8" black aiming bull.
http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductIm...ium/792024.jpg

Keeping all your shots in the black will put you into pretty good company when shooting iron sights in off hand when competing. (90-97 out of 100)
Of course a good shooting coat/jacket can make a world of difference there. But the real key is to establish a natural point of aim so that you aren't "muscling" the gun to get on target.

2

robocop10mm 03-25-2010 01:10 PM

"Natural point of aim" is a topic that is very often overlooked today. If you don't know what it is or how to determine it;
Shoulder your rifle and aim at the target. Close both eyes and move the gun side to side a bit allowing it to settle where it will. There should be no feeling of tension in your muscles. Open your eyes and see where the rifle is pointed. Adjust your stance so the rifle points naturally at the target. This will eliminate part of your problem.

Dry fire practice from the bench and off hand will help.

MoAmmoPlease 03-25-2010 01:44 PM

Thats great info Kermie. I can make the 6 3/8th benchmark with a "scoped" weapon so I'm good for the woods at least. Not sure I can consistanly do 12 inches using iron though.:(
What Robo refers to as "natural point of aim" was described to me as being instinctive. Like throwing a ball or shooting a puck or traditional bow. Your not really aiming but for some reason you can make them go where you want.
I guess I have to consciously work on my form and stance. Maybe instead of raking I will go over to the range...:rolleyes:

Highpower 03-25-2010 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoAmmoPlease (Post 257175)
What Robo refers to as "natural point of aim" was described to me as being instinctive. Like throwing a ball or shooting a puck or traditional bow. Your not really aiming but for some reason you can make them go where you want.

I don't know about shooting a traditional bow, but there is nothing "instinctive" about establishing your NPA with a rifle. It takes a little bit of work to make it happen.

I won't go into the entire ritual here that I perform to accomplish that goal, but I'm sure a Google search will get you plenty of "how to's" on the subject. ;)

Let me google that for you

Tuner 03-30-2010 06:49 PM

If you can do 6+ inches offhand with a scope at 100 yards you should be able to do about the same with iron sights. Scopes can create problems especially when you are shooting from an unsupported (offhand) possition. The scope magnifies the movement of the rifle and the shooter sees this movement much better; iron sights do not show this as much. This increases the tendency to "jerk" the trigger when the cross hairs are on the target which destroys accruacy. Volumes have been written on trigger control, natural point of aim mentioned here, concentration, breath control, follow thru, calling your shot, etc. etc. One of the best things a hunter can learn to do is to use what is available to him in the field to steady their rifle so they do not have to shoot unsupported.

tpelle 04-02-2010 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoAmmoPlease (Post 257175)
Thats great info Kermie. I can make the 6 3/8th benchmark with a "scoped" weapon so I'm good for the woods at least. Not sure I can consistanly do 12 inches using iron though.:(
What Robo refers to as "natural point of aim" was described to me as being instinctive. Like throwing a ball or shooting a puck or traditional bow. Your not really aiming but for some reason you can make them go where you want.
I guess I have to consciously work on my form and stance. Maybe instead of raking I will go over to the range...:rolleyes:

Not exactly true.

Natural Point Of Aim is achieved when you place the rifle in firing position, then completely and consciously relax all of your muscles, close your eyes, take a full breath, exhale to the point where you reach a natural respiratory pause, the open your eyes to see where the sights are pointed. After all, the sights will be pointed SOMEWHERE, won't they? Then it's a matter of adjusting your body position relative to the target so that, when you go through the whole relax/breathe/look operation, the sights are pointed precisely on target.

NPOA presupposes that you know how to get into a stable bone-supported position, where your skeletal structure is supporting the rifle right up from the ground (remember that old song about "The leg bone connected to the thigh bone. The thigh bone connected to the hip bone" etc., etc.)

Google Natural Point Of Aim and you'll no doubt find lots of pointers.

753X0 04-03-2010 06:00 AM

Man, you did good, you sure don't haven't anything to worry about.:)

tpelle 04-03-2010 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuner (Post 260598)
If you can do 6+ inches offhand with a scope at 100 yards you should be able to do about the same with iron sights. Scopes can create problems especially when you are shooting from an unsupported (offhand) possition. The scope magnifies the movement of the rifle and the shooter sees this movement much better; iron sights do not show this as much. This increases the tendency to "jerk" the trigger when the cross hairs are on the target which destroys accruacy. Volumes have been written on trigger control, natural point of aim mentioned here, concentration, breath control, follow thru, calling your shot, etc. etc. One of the best things a hunter can learn to do is to use what is available to him in the field to steady their rifle so they do not have to shoot unsupported.

DING DING DING DING! WE HAVE A WINNER! GIVE THAT MAN A CIGAR!

This is EXACTLY what I've been preaching over on ARFCOM for the last few years!

I have seen so many new shooters go out and buy a rifle....any rifle, not just an AR....and when they shoot it, after no instruction and using techniques they've learned from watching Sylvester Stallone movies, they find they group like patterning a cylinder bore shotgun. So what do they do? They go buy a scope!

Of course we live in an instant-gratification society where, if you want something, you go throw money at it. But shooting isn't that way. You've got to be willing to dedicate a little effort.

The secret of hitting your intended target with a rifle is simply this: When the hammer drops, the rifle has to be pointed at the target! A steady hold, good sight alignment and sight picture, shooting during your respiratory pause, good trigger control, and proper follow through is what gets it done. And this is achieved only with dedication, training, and good practice. That is, practice that actually practices good techniques, not bad techniques.

All of this can be achieved with iron sights.

The AR platform, especially the A2 version, has pretty good iron sights. Not the best - that's the M1/M14 rifle - but pretty good. The irons will give you all of the capability you need out to, say, 500 yards in a defensive situation.

Now, maybe if you're trying to hit a very small target, like, say, a prairie dog at 200 yards, a scope may give you a little more precision in your sight picture, but you've got to have a rifle that's capable of grouping that tightly to make the optic worthwhile. And you've got to be able to hold steady enough to keep the crosshairs on target through the shot and the follow through.


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