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Old 12-11-2012, 02:03 PM   #21
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Actually, the rule does not require hammer down to start.

First pull must by double action for Stock service pistol SSP

First pull may be single action for enhanced service pistol ESP and custom defensive pistol CDP.

safeties must be engaged.



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Old 12-11-2012, 02:55 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by willfully armed View Post
Actually, the rule does not require hammer down to start.

First pull must by double action for Stock service pistol SSP

First pull may be single action for enhanced service pistol ESP and custom defensive pistol CDP.

safeties must be engaged.
The decocker on the P95 is up on the slide. If I don't drop the gun trying to disengage the decocker my hand is up high on the gun. God or what ever you believe in gave us an opposing thumb to hang on to things.

Bang, you just made my decision. IDPA is not for people that shoot a P95. When IDPA sends a glock to my house I will go back and shoot.


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Old 12-11-2012, 03:08 PM   #23
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That's why I own 4 glocks. I shot a few with my USP's, but its a glock and m&p game.

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Old 12-15-2012, 10:16 AM   #24
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Actually, the rule does not require hammer down to start.

First pull must by double action for Stock service pistol SSP

First pull may be single action for enhanced service pistol ESP and custom defensive pistol CDP.

safeties must be engaged.
I copied the following from the IDPA forum:
Rule description with page number or addendum page number:
Rule book page 10 C15. And page 8 S9 (what is considered holstered and safe)
2. Description of the problem:
SO's in our area are inconsistent with interpretation of the position of the safety on double action auto pistols for the start condition, specifically the Beretta 92 and like systems. This has led some competitors to avoid using this weapon platform to avoid the issue and others have been forced to improperly operate their weapon contrary to their training.

3. Your suggestion for a solution:
Please clarify for the record the appropriate condition of readiness for double action auto pistols with respect to the safety position when de-cocked and holstered. Specifically the Beretta 92 system and others like it. I suggest IDPA HQ clarify that the safety can be either on or off on de-cocked auto pistols at the discretion of the COMPETITOR. This is at least as "safe" as a holstered revolver and will allow the competitor to operate the weapon in a manner consistent with their training, whichever doctrine they may have been trained in. (Safety on or off.)


4. Justification why this is so pressing it requires the Tiger Teams interrupt the rule book revision process and issue a clarification immediately:

We are seeing many people new to IDPA but not new to their weapon system or shooting that are giving this sport a try. When this occurs it not only affects the person involved but others who are watching and know better. This decreases the chance that they will join IDPA and participate in the second match. We only have one chance at a first impression. This has been discussed in detail in the forum already but it continues to be a problem in our area.
This reflects poorly on IDPA and can be resolved with an "official" position from HQ.
Thanks for your time.
Robert

IDPA official reply

Double action auto pistols such as the Beretta 92 and others like it, when de-cocked and holstered, can have the safety on or off at the discretion of the competitor. Either position renders them safe when decocked and holstered.


http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/8877/Mechanical-Condition-of-Readiness-second-try#.UMxiam_Afhh
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:51 AM   #25
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This discussion shows why IDPA is but a game and a rather silly one at that.

How many different categories of firearm? Why? Because it's a game. Range Officials cannot tell the difference between a decocking device and a safety? Silly game. Drop a magazine with rounds on the ground and get a penalty even if the objective of the stage is met? Silly game. Loading not behind cover? In the real world, cover doesn't always exist where the match designer wants it. Reloading in the open may not be the best place, but can be the ONLY place. For that matter, reloading isn't so important in reality. Most problems don't require fifteen hits.

IPSC went the same way, but made a fetish of the 30 round burst.

There are NO rules in a gunfight, other than shooting the wrong person. So, other than range safety - not shooting one's self or other participants - no rules.

Course of fire and stages need to be designed to test the shooter NOT the magazine capacity of the weapon.

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Old 12-22-2012, 02:05 PM   #26
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Dear John Deere..

the rules of the game are just that. a game. However, the rules of weapon safety are universal, and should NEVER be compromised. You allowed yourself to become distracted, lose focus, and you violated a universal rule of firearms safety, and performed a Negligent Discharge. that has nothing to do with range/safety officers, IDPA rules, or being a first timer at a competition.

but you know what you did, and you learned from it, and NOBODY GOT HURT! that's the important part.

I too have had an ND. it's a humbling experience, and it awakens you for sure. Mine happened in Afghanistan. We had confusing ROEs and we were highly encouraged to carry our weapons around in "Green" status 24/7 Green being completely unloaded. However, we were authorized to elevate our weapon status if we felt the need. I was walking back to the secure compound on my own one night from the Afghan compound. Because I was on foot, I walked on the flightline side of the perimieter, where there was no ECP or gate guard or clearing station. I forgot that I had inserted a mag into the pistol (no round was chambered though)

The next day on lunch break, I was driving back to the secure compound where I did pass through an ECP with a clearing station, but because of complacency and force of habit, I "went through the motions" When your weapons are unloaded and you know it, you tend to allow yourself to just rack the slide, drop the hammer, and be on your way. well...I still had the mag in from the night before. when I racked the slide, I chambered a round. then I dropped the hammer and sent the round into the barrel.

Everyone was saying that we needed to change the clearing procedures to eliminate pulling the trigger, because that would prevent NDs from happening. I disagreed, and was adamant that we KEEP the clearing procedures the same, because if all I did was flip the safety, then I'd have been carrying around a hot weapon.

I could have blamed the inconsistent ROE, I could have blamed the fact that there was no ECP/Clearing station on the flightline side of the compound, I could have blamed the clearing procedures, but the fact of the matter is, I failed to properly and safely unload and make safe of my weapon. the responsibility rested with me and me alone. I accepted that, AND the Letter of Reprimand that went along with it.

But at the end of the day, it was a learning experience and nobody got hurt. We're all human, we all screw the pooch now and then.



now, as far as a new shooter intro course, there is more they could do, maybe have a day where new shooters come out and run through the stages with no ammo, just to get a feel for what's going on. the SO/RO can run everything as if it were hot, to include the make safe procedures at the end of your string of fire.

However, one thing that is currently in place, is that they encourage new shooters to watch a match in person before participating. this is not a requirement however, it's just a suggestion. Most shooters I know, practice at home. without ammo. you can work in your basement, living room, etc. with no ammo in your magazines, you can practice your draws, reloads, slicing the pie around corners, etc.

I hope you give IDPA a second chance, give it some time to get that bitter taste out of your mouth, and take a step back, understand that the ND was not the fault of IDPA, their rules, or the SO. it was yours. once you accept that, learn from it and move on, I think you can come to enjoy IDPA even if using your non-standard handgun.

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Old 12-23-2012, 09:37 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 70cuda383 View Post
Dear John Deere..

the rules of the game are just that. a game. However, the rules of weapon safety are universal, and should NEVER be compromised. You allowed yourself to become distracted, lose focus, and you violated a universal rule of firearms safety, and performed a Negligent Discharge. that has nothing to do with range/safety officers, IDPA rules, or being a first timer at a competition.

but you know what you did, and you learned from it, and NOBODY GOT HURT! that's the important part.

I too have had an ND. it's a humbling experience, and it awakens you for sure. Mine happened in Afghanistan. We had confusing ROEs and we were highly encouraged to carry our weapons around in "Green" status 24/7 Green being completely unloaded. However, we were authorized to elevate our weapon status if we felt the need. I was walking back to the secure compound on my own one night from the Afghan compound. Because I was on foot, I walked on the flightline side of the perimieter, where there was no ECP or gate guard or clearing station. I forgot that I had inserted a mag into the pistol (no round was chambered though)

The next day on lunch break, I was driving back to the secure compound where I did pass through an ECP with a clearing station, but because of complacency and force of habit, I "went through the motions" When your weapons are unloaded and you know it, you tend to allow yourself to just rack the slide, drop the hammer, and be on your way. well...I still had the mag in from the night before. when I racked the slide, I chambered a round. then I dropped the hammer and sent the round into the barrel.

Everyone was saying that we needed to change the clearing procedures to eliminate pulling the trigger, because that would prevent NDs from happening. I disagreed, and was adamant that we KEEP the clearing procedures the same, because if all I did was flip the safety, then I'd have been carrying around a hot weapon.

I could have blamed the inconsistent ROE, I could have blamed the fact that there was no ECP/Clearing station on the flightline side of the compound, I could have blamed the clearing procedures, but the fact of the matter is, I failed to properly and safely unload and make safe of my weapon. the responsibility rested with me and me alone. I accepted that, AND the Letter of Reprimand that went along with it.

But at the end of the day, it was a learning experience and nobody got hurt. We're all human, we all screw the pooch now and then.



now, as far as a new shooter intro course, there is more they could do, maybe have a day where new shooters come out and run through the stages with no ammo, just to get a feel for what's going on. the SO/RO can run everything as if it were hot, to include the make safe procedures at the end of your string of fire.

However, one thing that is currently in place, is that they encourage new shooters to watch a match in person before participating. this is not a requirement however, it's just a suggestion. Most shooters I know, practice at home. without ammo. you can work in your basement, living room, etc. with no ammo in your magazines, you can practice your draws, reloads, slicing the pie around corners, etc.

I hope you give IDPA a second chance, give it some time to get that bitter taste out of your mouth, and take a step back, understand that the ND was not the fault of IDPA, their rules, or the SO. it was yours. once you accept that, learn from it and move on, I think you can come to enjoy IDPA even if using your non-standard handgun.

I understand the part about the negligent discharge. I accept responsibility for the ND. Where I am confused is when did the Ruger P95 become a non standard handgun? I might shoot again with my P95 but I am going to get the rules straight on the phone or email before even visiting a gun range. I am not going to handle a weapon in a manner that is ridiculous for no reason.


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