When does it become "manufacturing"?
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > General Firearms Forums > NFA/Class 3 & FFL Discussion > When does it become "manufacturing"?

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-19-2012, 06:49 AM   #1
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
flyingtexan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11
Default When does it become "manufacturing"?

I'm a 01 dealer. I'd like to purchase built AR15 Uppers and Lowers, push the pin, and join them together, then sell them as a complete rifle.

Have I just manufactured a rifle? Or can I sell them legal as the day is long?

Any advice will be appreciated.

__________________

When the going gets weird the weird turn pro

flyingtexan is offline  
 
Reply With Quote

Join FirearmsTalk.com Today - It's Free!

Are you a firearms enthusiast? Then we hope you will join the community. You will gain access to post, create threads, private message, upload images, join groups and more.

Firearms Talk is owned and operated by fellow firearms enthusiasts. We strive to offer a non-commercial community to learn and share information.

Join FirearmsTalk.com Today! - Click Here


Old 03-19-2012, 06:55 AM   #2
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
jordan89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Defiance,Ohio
Posts: 1,255
Liked 69 Times on 49 Posts
Likes Given: 37

Default

To me that is just assembly. I would think manufacturing would be making those components from scratch.

Just my interpretation. Not legal advice.

__________________

Everybody needs a little Devastation!

jordan89 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 07:58 AM   #3
The Apocalypse Is Coming.....
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 28,735
Liked 21578 Times on 12248 Posts
Likes Given: 53672

Default

i agree with Jordan. but i would refer to an ATF branch for legal clarification on it to be safe and legal. as they would have final say. the lowers are the part that has the serial number and are regulated, the uppers can be bought by anyone and even mailordered to your home. i could go to my LGS and and buy five lowers and have five uppers mailed to my house and assemble five complet rifles. but as a dealer, there may be different rules that apply. so it might be something to check with them about.

__________________
Axxe55 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 12:15 PM   #4
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
wjnfirearms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Portersville,Pennsylvania
Posts: 336
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts

Default

I don't believe that what you want to do would be considered manufacturing. I sell a line of polymer complete lowers myself and offer an upper to compliment it with a complete unit price. Since the two halves are designed to snap together, I do believe that you should be all right on that.

I looked up the term, "manufacturer" in my copy of the NFA. It states, "The term "manufacturer" means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for the purposes of sale or distribution." You're not manufacturing, just assembling components.

__________________
wjnfirearms is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 06:00 PM   #5
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
rachilders's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 318
Liked 29 Times on 26 Posts
Likes Given: 107

Default

The key words here are buying the per-manufactured uppers/lowers, then simply putting the two halves together. Once those parts are assembled, you will have a working firearm. If you plan on selling a working firearm, it needs to be registered with the BATF. As axxe55 said, if you have already registered the lowers, there should be no problem since that's the "firearm" part of an AR. If the lowers haven't been registered, you sell the gun(s) and the ATF finds out, the feds will arrest you and take you away for many years.

__________________
"... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane
rachilders is online now  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 06:53 PM   #6
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Northern,WI
Posts: 1,103
Liked 205 Times on 130 Posts
Likes Given: 434

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rachilders View Post
The key words here are buying the per-manufactured uppers/lowers, then simply putting the two halves together. Once those parts are assembled, you will have a working firearm. If you plan on selling a working firearm, it needs to be registered with the BATF. As axxe55 said, if you have already registered the lowers, there should be no problem since that's the "firearm" part of an AR. If the lowers haven't been registered, you sell the gun(s) and the ATF finds out, the feds will arrest you and take you away for many years.
Why would he have to register anything with the atf, wouldn't he just have to do the proper paperwork and keep it on record as required for the transfer?
__________________
blucoondawg is online now  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 11:15 PM   #7
Retired
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
danf_fl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: LA (Lower Alabama),FL
Posts: 10,256
Liked 2869 Times on 1657 Posts
Likes Given: 1235

Default

Some of the ATF consider swapping out parts to be manufacturing.

Go to the source (BATF) and ask them.

__________________

Amendment II:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Life Member NRA
Life Member NAHC
Former President of the ECPT (Eifel Combat Pistol Team)

danf_fl is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2012, 06:08 AM   #8
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
rachilders's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 318
Liked 29 Times on 26 Posts
Likes Given: 107

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blucoondawg View Post
Why would he have to register anything with the atf, wouldn't he just have to do the proper paperwork and keep it on record as required for the transfer?
Maybe a better choice of words would be this. Whenever someone buys a firearm from a retailer/wholesaler/FFL holder/etc, that firearm will have a serial number. Unless it is a "private" sale between two individuals, the buyer & seller must complete the proper ATF form (which includes that serial number) before transfer of the weapon from the seller to the buyer. That's what I meant when I said you must register a gun with the ATF. The BATF can ask the FFL holder/seller to see that paperwork at any time and if you don't have those records, it will cause a lot of problems for both the seller and the person who purchased that gun. In the case of an AR lower, that is the "firearm" as per the BATF and has the serial number. If you purchased complete lowers from a company, they should already have serial numbers and when you add the upper, it's the same as putting a new slide or barrel on a handgun. TC owners do it all the time.
__________________
"... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

Last edited by rachilders; 03-20-2012 at 06:20 AM.
rachilders is online now  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2012, 06:23 AM   #9
Moderator
FTF_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
robocop10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Austin,Texas, by God!!
Posts: 10,059
Liked 2731 Times on 1430 Posts
Likes Given: 230

Default

A firearm is "registered" with the ATF and an excise tax paid. It must be declared as a long gun or handgun at that time. If it has a serial number, it is already "registered" and adding parts is not manufacturing unless you are adding full auto parts or a sub 16" barrel to a rifle lower.

__________________

In life, strive to take the high road....It offers a better field of fire.
"Robo is right" Fuzzball

robocop10mm is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2012, 03:39 PM   #10
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
wjnfirearms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Portersville,Pennsylvania
Posts: 336
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts

Default

As to recording the acquisition pre sale of the lowers, if you just list them on your acquisition & disposition log as you're supposed to before you either sell them as is or mate them with an upper to sell as a complete unit, you should be covered as to having them at as part of your inventory in the first place. As each one sells either by themselves or mated, you just record the buyer on the disposition side of each, as you're supposed to, and that's it.

Robo is pretty much on the money, also.

I know some people have been concerned that they sell lowers and they may be made into an SBR. I looked into this since I've sold quite a few of the polymer lowers all over the US. Every lower is serialed, so paperwork has to be done on each acquisition and sale which every FFL has to keep on file. It is what it is. Now, if someone buys a lower either by itself, it matters not is if it's complete or stripped, or mated with a legal upper, the dealer is covered as long as the required 4473 is done and the A&D log is complete. Now, if the buyer decided to make his own SBR after the fact, there are no ramifications to the dealer that sold the lower in the first place. Your log and 4473 shows that it wasn't an SBR at the time of sale, so you're golden. It falls 100% on the owner of the weapon if he doesn't have the stamp in his posession. Conversely, if someone comes to buy a lower from you and states that it is for an SBR, according to my contacts at ATF, you are supposed to demand the stamp be shown to you or you aren't supposed to turn over the lower to the buyer. By the end user admitting intent and you knowing full well the use that the lower is intended for, you could be complicit if you don't demand to see the stamp or turn over the lower if none is presented to you. Again, that's what I've been told.

__________________
wjnfirearms is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
"Do "Gun-Free" Zones Encourage School Shootings?" cnorman18 The Club House 26 04-17-2012 09:57 PM
Old Revolver - "Revolvers Dreadnought" - "Azul" - Anyone familiar? stelliott80 Revolver Handguns 3 07-13-2011 10:52 PM
Is there a Line Between "Hunting" and "Extermination" GoBlue Hunting Forum 4 09-08-2010 08:40 PM
Witloe Remington 1858 New Model Army "Lee" & "Grant" bprevolver Blackpowder & Musket 0 09-25-2008 11:11 PM