[fsted2a]

Originally Posted by Dillinger

IEvery once in a while you have to swing for the fences

It makes the home run more significant if you have all the bases loaded. I think we all agree we need to make efforts to get all of our 2a rights back, but some of us are thinking along the lines of strategic wins first. Right now we need to vote for getting more 2A friendly officials in office, or all of this will just be talk.

[anm2_man]

Originally Posted by Dillinger

And this from the jaded side of the fence that would stand to lose money if the things went legit again.

Last I checked those companies were about making money. When company "B" starts moving units, company "A" isn't making money. Price point becomes key, not the infamous "pre-ban" stigma.

Very True, but investments in tooling and expanded manufacturing capability cost $$$. Stockholder/investors need to vote on expansion requests. I'm not saying that they cannot do it, but if you think you would be able to buy a FA Colt M16 for $1500 (I think that is what they sell them to the Gov't for), you as an individual will pay a bunch more.

And converting an existing AR lower to receive full auto parts is pretty quick once you script it in the CNC, so worrying about Colt is the last thing I would do.

This is a good point. Sear could be made quite easily. But not all lowers could accept them. But again, some body has to invest a ton of money to create them.

Before AWB 1 was put to rest you could not touch a collapsible stock, now you can have any variety you want, most for under $100

Sorry - You can not compare the AWB to Hughes. It was written buy liberal NY Democrats that had never seen a Assualt Weapon !

You want to talk about old school Thompsons? Unless someone has been filing that patent year after year, guess what? A lot of new CNC machined Thompsons.

Again, doable, but who would want to buy a copy of a classic MG that was really a part the the history of the USA ? My problem is if I want a piece of history, I would pay the $30k for a 1928 Navy Over stamp Thompson. If I want just a subgun, I wouldn't buy a clone Thompson, I want a MP5 that works really good !

Oh, they did renew their patents?

Surprise, new updated Thompsons with a different operating system to by pass the patent.

How many mom and pop AR shops have sprung up in the last 15 years? Hell the Internet fanboy mega house of BCM has only been around since 2003/04 depending on incorporation versus sales.

You think that trend stops because a new market opens

There is no downside to opening the registry.

Last but not least - What are YOU going to do about AMMO ?????

[TruggieTex]

Guess I'll weigh in here...I

-have a healthy firearm collection
-treasure my right to their possession
-am an avid hunter (of many flying and hoofed animals)
-enjoy range time as a family activity
-carry when on the road
-have a home defense strategy
-have structured my collection around some of the most dependable, effective, and proven firearm platforms available without class 3 license
-feel that I, with some notice (hard to pack the M1a scout!), will not be out gunned in any civilian encounter with current restrictions
-am concerned that if widespread, I would be forced to 'anti up' and expand or repopulate my safe(s)

All that aside, I have never fired a full-auto firearm and do hope for that chance some day. The force is strong with the neato factor!

The constitutional breach is obvious to me..just like requiring ID and verification for one "right" (gun purchase), and restricting that ID and verification for another (voting).

Clear as mud?

[Dillinger]

Originally Posted by anm2_man

Last but not least - What are YOU going to do about AMMO ?????

Tagged so I can respond from a keyboard and not my phone.

[FullautoUSA]

Originally Posted by fsted2a

It makes the home run more significant if you have all the bases loaded. I think we all agree we need to make efforts to get all of our 2a rights back, but some of us are thinking along the lines of strategic wins first. Right now we need to vote for getting more 2A friendly officials in office, or all of this will just be talk.

We can't rely on the politicians, they'll do anything they can to win, and once they get in there is no way to tell what they'll do. The only way we can get get our rights back is to stand up and disregard what the governments unconstitutional laws, they have no power over us and most importantly the Constitution. Did Dr. King just hope that politicians would stop segregation, no, he stood up for his rights and did what he wanted to, and eventually other people started to follow him and there cause was successful. Did Ben Franklin hope that the english would stop controlling them, no, he told them to go shove it. Dr. King and Ben Franklin are true Americans, they didn't just let the government tell them what to do, they did what they wanted because they knew they were right. How can we call ourselves Americans if even consider the fact that these gun laws have any authority, we know we are right, so why should we listen to the government.

[axxe55]

Originally Posted by FullautoUSA

We can't rely on the politicians, they'll do anything they can to win, and once they get in there is no way to tell what they'll do. The only way we can get get our rights back is to stand up and disregard what the governments unconstitutional laws, they have no power over us and most importantly the Constitution. Did Dr. King just hope that politicians would stop segregation, no, he stood up for his rights and did what he wanted to, and eventually other people started to follow him and there cause was successful. Did Ben Franklin hope that the english would stop controlling them, no, he told them to go shove it. Dr. King and Ben Franklin are true Americans, they didn't just let the government tell them what to do, they did what they wanted because they knew they were right. How can we call ourselves Americans if even consider the fact that these gun laws have any authority, we know we are right, so why should we listen to the government.

FAUSA, change takes time and lots of effort. it will not happen overnight and lots of things have to happen in order to impliment change. you are talking about trying to undo laws that have been in effect for many, many years. trying to diregard the current laws as they are will more than likely land you in a 6x9 room courtesy of the federal government! you want change, then you need to organize, recruit politicians that can help change the laws, write your legislators, start petitions, but do it in a lawful manner or you do more damage than good.

[FullautoUSA]

Originally Posted by axxe55

but do it in a lawful manner.

According to Amendment 2 of the U.S constitution, I, an American citizen have the right to military hardware, well looks like I just found the legitimacy of all gun laws, and it looks like there is none.

[axxe55]

Originally Posted by FullautoUSA

According to Amendment 2 of the U.S constitution, I, an American citizen have the right to military hardware, well looks like I just found the legitimacy of all gun laws, and it looks like there is none.

tell you what, you go right ahead and let the rest of us know how it turns out for you. you try to disregard the law, and yes i agree that they are unconstitutional, then they will not hesitate for one second in making an example of you and put you in a prison cell for a long period of time. now if you got say every law abiding gun owner to organize, and i mean every one of them say 10 million of them to stand up and protest and to disregard current gun laws, then that might have some weight to move things into a different direction. but a few people, is just not going to get it done.

just so you know my position. i am all for a law abiding citizen owning whatever firearm they want, FA, SBR, SBS, silencers, ect..... without restriction or permit. i also believe that every LAC should be able to CC or OC without any permit in any state without restriction. i believe every LAC, should have every right to protect their family and property from criminals without any hindrance from prosecution or lawsuit from the criminal or their families.

[Dillinger]

Originally Posted by Dillinger

And this from the jaded side of the fence that would stand to lose money if the things went legit again.

Last I checked those companies were about making money. When company "B" starts moving units, company "A" isn't making money. Price point becomes key, not the infamous "pre-ban" stigma.

Originally Posted by anm2_man

Very True, but investments in tooling and expanded manufacturing capability cost $$$. Stockholder/investors need to vote on expansion requests. I'm not saying that they cannot do it, but if you think you would be able to buy a FA Colt M16 for $1500 (I think that is what they sell them to the Gov't for), you as an individual will pay a bunch more.

See, you would think that, but you would be wrong.

The AR-15 is built off of Eugene Stoner's brilliant design, but restricted by TOO MUCH material to allow for true full automatic operation.

You see, they just DIDN'T make the extra cross drill for the auto-sear and they didn't hollow out the extra clearance for the hammer inside the receiver.

ANY AR-15 lower receiver can HIGHLY ILLEGALLY be modified to accept full auto parts in about an hour if you have the specs, in a garage with a drill press, and a steady hand. If you have access to an EndMill? Cut that time by half with competent set up.

Originally Posted by Dillinger

And converting an existing AR lower to receive full auto parts is pretty quick once you script it in the CNC, so worrying about Colt is the last thing I would do.

Originally Posted by anm2_man

This is a good point. Sear could be made quite easily. But not all lowers could accept them. But again, some body has to invest a ton of money to create them.

Not really, not at all actually. All they have to do is program a script for a CNC machine to accept a 90% lower and cut out the last portion along with the cross drill. Now this is only for the AR-15 to Full Auto conversion. But, it's a start.

The auto-sear can be made by the thousands, and with limited material and costs. Springs? Hardly a cost concern.

Originally Posted by Dillinger

Before AWB 1 was put to rest you could not touch a collapsible stock, now you can have any variety you want, most for under $100

Originally Posted by anm2_man

Sorry - You can not compare the AWB to Hughes. It was written buy liberal NY Democrats that had never seen a Assualt Weapon !

Actually, I can. But I can see how it would seem stupid in the "grand scheme".

You see, we are talking, in the very baby steps phases, of re-introducing a specific sub culture of weapons, or weapon parts, that has been absent from the market.

When AWB was in effect, no one was opening AR shops. No one was converting machine shops to make AR's. No one was producing "small shop" parts, or accessories, or full rifles.

AWB goes by the wayside and nothing happens. Mostly.

For about half a year, maybe a year. The recognized makers start producing the collapsible stocks and the pistol grips and the threaded barrels and the unpinned flash suppressors.

And then the American Enterprising spirit takes over and suddenly there are small shop wannabe's that step out on the limb and want to be players in the AR market.

They start small. They make a few parts. They hit gun shows. They do demos and they make sales. Word spreads....

Companies are now selling "matching" upper and lowers from $250 to as much as $985 (Iron Mountain - recent quote) for billet.

That level of commerce would have NEVER have been recognized under the Klinton AWB.

And why? Because the law of Supply and Demand has been enacted and responded too.

Originally Posted by Dillinger

You want to talk about old school Thompsons? Unless someone has been filing that patent year after year, guess what? A lot of new CNC machined Thompsons.

Originally Posted by anm2_man

Again, doable, but who would want to buy a copy of a classic MG that was really a part the the history of the USA ? My problem is if I want a piece of history, I would pay the $30k for a 1928 Navy Over stamp Thompson. If I want just a subgun, I wouldn't buy a clone Thompson, I want a MP5 that works really good !

See. This automatically ASSUMES that everyone that wants a full auto Thompson is the historian and well educated, product line loving, extreme purveyor of F/A arms that you are good sir. *I mean that with the utmost respect by the way*

Not everyone is you and your well heeled shooting partners I am afraid. Some people would just love to have a Thompson that they want to shoot the ever living sh*t out of it like they are Bugs Moran on Feb. 14th, 1929.

Hard to fathom, but it's true.

As a John Dillinger "fan" I would love to own two guns that John used. The "other" is a Thompson.

Originally Posted by Dillinger

How many mom and pop AR shops have sprung up in the last 15 years? Hell the Internet fanboy mega house of BCM has only been around since 2003/04 depending on incorporation versus sales.

You think that trend stops because a new market opens?!

You did not address this point. I don't blame you, it's pretty telling in the wake of the Capitalist Spirit of WHY America is the greatest country to ever live in, regardless.

Originally Posted by anm2_man

Last but not least - What are YOU going to do about AMMO ?????

You are right, I did not address this point. I posted. I re-read it and thought "I should address that point" and then I decided that perhaps sleep was better and the train of thoughts I had left would answer the question.

Clearly not.

What would "I" do about ammo.? I have been shooting full auto, off and on, for probably 20 years. I have no desire to load up a Beta Mag and unload 100 rounds, time after time. Just not in my nature anymore I am afraid. So, "I" personally would be fine.

Okay, what about ammo (for the rest of the folks)?

Imagine if you will:

5.56MM ammo is nonexistent. 7.62MM is going for $10/round. Wildcat AR-15 cartridges are now flying off the shelves in any production form available.

Then the American Entrepreneurial Spirit kicks in. In about 150(x10) small shops and homes and gunsmith's minds around the lower 48.

Then the question is supply of Brass, Primers and bullets.

Well? Supply and Demand is a cruel bitch. If you ignore her, others won't.

Bottom line, more ammo shops open, producing more ammo at a point beyond "D" day. The price comes down, the use of automatic weapons picks up, the rate of production of parts, ammo and full rifles pick up, and everyone is happ(ier) with their God given Constitutional Rights.

Proof?

Compare number of AR makers under AWB to the number of AR makers after AWB expired.

JD

[fsted2a]

"FA Colt M16 for $1500 (I think that is what they sell them to the Gov't for)"
FYI- they sell them to the Gov't for $503.00. I imagine they can do it due to less red tape with the transfer to military. But you are right- a civilian will pay 3-4 times that much at the cheapest.