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Old 04-14-2013, 01:21 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by c3shooter View Post
Just to reinforce- and maybe clarify a bit for some new folks-

The receiver legally IS the gun. In the case of an AR, the LOWER receiver. If you bought a finished receiver, added all the parts to make a working gun, you did not manufacture a firearm. Whoever completed the manufacture of the lower reciever was the manufacturer. If I buy one, it is treated the same as a firearm (you must be 21 to buy one, since it is not a rifle or shotgun yet- it is an "other")

HOWEVER- a receiver that is 80% (or less) complete is NOT YET a firearm. It is a paper weight. Until it is milled, drilled, threaded, shaped, etc, it cannot be made to fire anything. I can buy one by mail, and it does not need to pass thru the hands of a FFL.

Under current federal law, nothing prohibits you from making a gun for your own use. But if you buy an 80% receiver, complete it to 100%, you cannot put the gun into the stream of commerce (sell it) unless you had the aforementioned FFL as a Manufacturer of Firearms.

If you live in a state that does not allow ownership of a given firearm, you cannot dodge that by building your own.

DISCLAIMER- My FFL is NOT a Manufacurer's FFL. Anyone that IS a Manfacturer, please feel free to correct anything I said.
so, (in your opinion) the purchase of a completed, but stripped AR lower that already has a serial number, requires the FFL/NICS background check and transfer, then buying the parts to turn it into a working AR is not manufacturing a firearm, and if you decide to sell it later for whatever reason, then it's ok?

what if you buy a stripped lower expressly for the intent to complete the rifle for purpose of resale? is that then a violation of fed law the same as buying a gun with the intent of walking out of the store and flipping it for a profit?
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Old 04-14-2013, 01:32 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 70cuda383

what if you buy a stripped lower expressly for the intent to complete the rifle for purpose of resale? is that then a violation of fed law the same as buying a gun with the intent of walking out of the store and flipping it for a profit?
You know, that is a valid question.
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Old 04-14-2013, 02:20 PM   #23
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This is a good reference:
http://www.gunreports.com/special_reports/long_guns/BATFE-Rules-For-Manufacturing-Under-Gun-Control-Act725-1.html

Basically, if one buys parts and assembles a firearm for the reason of profit, they are manufacturing.

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Old 04-14-2013, 02:23 PM   #24
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Cuda- again, this is purely my understanding- and I am NOT a lawyer-

Buy a 100% stripped lower, assemble it into a working firearm, you CAN sell it- you did not manufacture the receiver.

And Federal law does NOT prohibit an occasional sale of a firearm.

HOWEVER, if you decide that you want to do this on a regular basis, then you would be "engaging in the business" of buying and selling guns- defined by the Feds as "devoting time and attention to it for the purpose of making a livelihood" THEN you need to be licensed as an 01 FFL- a dealer.

Would buying that 100% stripped lower be a strawman sale? If you were the ACTUAL PURCHASER of the lower, intending to sell it at some future time- no, it is not. But if I gave you the money to buy the lower and parts, you assemble that for me, you fail the "actual buyer" test.

Reminder- the original post was about buying an 80% lower, and making that non-firearm into a firearm, and selling them. Different matter.

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Old 04-14-2013, 09:56 PM   #25
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If you buy a 100% legal stripped AR lower and add the parts to make it shoot, the ATF says that you have manufactured a firearm by adding value to it. FFLs are required for anyone who deals in the commerce of selling firearms. As been said, to manufacture a firearm for sale you have to have a type 07 manufactures license. If you build one and your are not licensed it is not transferable. You can't sale or even give it away. If you have a question about the laws call the ATF they are good about giving you a good answer. One agent referred me to an enforcement agent when she did not know the answer. If you want to build guns for sale, get a type 07 license it is not as hard as you might think.

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Old 04-14-2013, 10:15 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alcovyguns
If you buy a 100% legal stripped AR lower and add the parts to make it shoot, the ATF says that you have manufactured a firearm by adding value to it. FFLs are required for anyone who deals in the commerce of selling firearms. As been said, to manufacture a firearm for sale you have to have a type 07 manufactures license. If you build one and your are not licensed it is not transferable. You can't sale or even give it away. If you have a question about the laws call the ATF they are good about giving you a good answer. One agent referred me to an enforcement agent when she did not know the answer. If you want to build guns for sale, get a type 07 license it is not as hard as you might think.
BATFE considers the receiver to be the actual firearm. Therefore the firearm was manufactured by (fill in the blank) arms.
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Old 04-15-2013, 04:24 AM   #27
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07 FFLs also come with a pesky little thing called ITAR and EPA disposal regs. Complete BS, I think ITAR is up to $2500 a year.

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Old 04-15-2013, 12:30 PM   #28
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I was just curious, because you hear about guys who say "I've built 15 or 20 AR-15s" and it makes you wonder, do they really have 15 or 20 ARs in their collections at home? or did they build them and sell them? If they sold them, did they do so with an FFL? or was it not required because you already bought the "firearm" in the sense that the receiver has the serial number and background check.

I don't believe that "adding value" suddenly turns you into a gun maker. What if one buys a complete, stock mil-spec 1911, and then turns it into an open race gun with special trigger jobs, optics, compensators, etc. I believe that would be called "adding value" to the gun...but surely that does not turn them into a gun maker who needs an FFL or manufactures license to sell, does it?

What's the difference in "adding value" to a complete and ready to shoot 1911, and "adding value" to a complete/finished AR lower?

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Old 04-15-2013, 01:35 PM   #29
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"Club Fed" is filled with people who thought they could get away with stuff.

Buy a lower, Assemble, then sell for the amount you have in it is not "adding value".
Buy a lower, Assemble, add time, then sell it, and you are making a profit off of your time. Making profit must have a license.

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Old 04-15-2013, 01:54 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911love
07 FFLs also come with a pesky little thing called ITAR and EPA disposal regs. Complete BS, I think ITAR is up to $2500 a year.
Yeah I originally had a type 07 FFL. Then realized I had to register with the DDTC which would cost me $2,250 per year or sth like that. No thanks, I called my atf agent lady and reapplied for a type 01 immediately.
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