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Old 05-31-2007, 04:40 PM   #1
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Default Burst Fire in M16

I'd like to have some myths and mysteries cleared up for me.

What exactly seperates a civilian "AR15" from the "M16"???

I hear all kinds of lightening links and drop in auto sears and crap like that for conversions but alot of people also say that they are unreliable at best and are more likely to get your face blown up with a scattering shrapnel gun reciever.

How does the burst fire work? How can they set up a gun to bump off 2-3 rounds only and not just stick into full auto and therebye wasting tons of ammo?

Is it true that most of the M16's issued now dont even have a full auto position due to the idea I just elaborated on "spray and pray"????

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Old 05-31-2007, 07:32 PM   #2
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The M16A1 was designed with a full auto position. It was deemed inneffective a LONG time ago (aka "spray and pray") and, elong with several other design upgrades, inclduing a lighter barrel and different twist, a 3 round burst selection was chosen to replace the full auto mode. With the exception of soem GAUs that are still in service (think fully auto M4), it's a 3 round burst fire mode only.

I can't exactly tell you how it only fires three rounds, so I'll leave that to some armorer type person who can explain it better than I can.

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Old 05-31-2007, 07:57 PM   #3
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Quote:
What exactly seperates a civilian "AR15" from the "M16"???
For simplicity we will compare the M16A2 to a standard AR15 with fixed stock, and 20" barrel. The select fire M16 has a different bolt carrier, hammer, trigger, disconnector, and saftey selector. It also has the addition of an auto sear, and the burst fire mechanisims that are missing on civilian AR15s. The M16 also has a larger diameter buffer tube as well.

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I hear all kinds of lightening links and drop in auto sears and crap like that for conversions but alot of people also say that they are unreliable at best and are more likely to get your face blown up with a scattering shrapnel gun reciever.
Unless you posess a DIAS, or LL that was registered with the BATFE before May of 1986 these types of devices are illegal to manufacture or posses. lightning links and drop in auto sears that are registered may be installed on any host gun regardless of manufacture date. Using a DIAS or LL also allows you to use a shorter than 16" barrel without having to register the weapon with the ATF. DIAS units are a reliable method of converting a semi AR into a select fire AR as long as you replace the hammer, trigger. disconnector, saftey selector, and bolt carrier with M16 parts. You can also use burst fire assemblies with a DIAS. LL are a poor choice for a conversion since they allow for full auto fire only, with no option for semi mode. Neither will harm a AR that is in spec, and good condition although the best conversion is to machine out the receiver "shelf" and drill the third hole for the sears axis pin. You can tell the difference between a factory full auto AR, and a semi unit by the lack of this pin hole over the saftey on a civilian gun.

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How does the burst fire work? How can they set up a gun to bump off 2-3 rounds only and not just stick into full auto and therebye wasting tons of ammo?
I won't go into the detail on how burst fire works since its hard to explain in writting, but to put it simply it uses a ratchet type system which is different from the type of burst system Hk uses. It is really a poor system used on the A2 since the cam does not reset itself each pull of the trigger. If you fire two shots out of a 3 round burst the next trigger pull will only give you 1 round, where as Hks set up resets itself.

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Is it true that most of the M16's issued now dont even have a full auto position due to the idea I just elaborated on "spray and pray"????
Yes the burst setting was added to make up for poor trigger control. In Vietnam the first time the Army issued full auto was issued to most troops it was estimated that an average of 125,000 rounds were fired for each enemy killed. Needless to say jumpy troops with full auto proved to be wasteful of ammo. The new M4A1, and M4A2 differ in that one has a burst setting, and one has full auto. The new M16A4s (the Marines version of the A3) also has full auto instead of burst.
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Old 06-01-2007, 02:45 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by BrassMonkey View Post
Using a DIAS or LL also allows you to use a shorter than 16" barrel without having to register the weapon with the ATF.

LL are a poor choice for a conversion since they allow for full auto fire only, with no option for semi mode.

2 things i'd like to make clearer.

1st, you can use any length barrel when the LL or DIAS are in the host weapon. However, as soon as your remove the LL or DIAS, the host becomes an illegal sbr unless you do sbr paperwork.

2nd, You can purchase a select fire kit for the LL that will allow semi and full.

Just wanted to make sure that was clear.
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Old 06-01-2007, 04:12 AM   #5
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My understanding is that they stopped the full auto because of its tendencies to cause jams and fouling more easily. The earlier M16's did not have chrome lined chambers which cause a lot of the jamming and the full auto just compunded it. Another thing that gave m16's the rep of being unreliable is that when they were first issued on a large scale they didn't give the soldiers cleaning kits because it was a "self cleaning" unit.

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Old 06-01-2007, 11:05 AM   #6
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BLS33 is partly correct. Full auto offers no advantage over burst in preventing fouling. Burst was just an effort to prevent troops from wasting ammo with "spray & pray" shooting. Chrome lined chambers are not standard on the current issue M16s, and M4s since they were later found to be unnecessary. The self cleaning myth early on in the M16s history was a problem though, but by 67 all M16 rifles were issued with cleaning kits.

The real problem that plauged the M16 upon its introduction was the type of powder used in the ammo. They started off using a very dirty stick powder, and later switched to cleaner ball powder. After they issued cleaning kits, and switched ammo most all of the reliability problems went away. Sadly however the M16s initial troubles in Vietnam still haunt its reputation today.

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2 things i'd like to make clearer.

1st, you can use any length barrel when the LL or DIAS are in the host weapon. However, as soon as your remove the LL or DIAS, the host becomes an illegal sbr unless you do sbr paperwork.

2nd, You can purchase a select fire kit for the LL that will allow semi and full.

Just wanted to make sure that was clear.
You are correct I should have pointed that out. There is much information to be found regarding lightning links, and drop in auto sears here.
http://www.quarterbore.com/
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Old 06-02-2007, 01:28 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by BrassMonkey View Post
BLS33 is partly correct. Full auto offers no advantage over burst in preventing fouling. Burst was just an effort to prevent troops from wasting ammo with "spray & pray" shooting. Chrome lined chambers are not standard on the current issue M16s, and M4s since they were later found to be unnecessary. The self cleaning myth early on in the M16s history was a problem though, but by 67 all M16 rifles were issued with cleaning kits.

The real problem that plauged the M16 upon its introduction was the type of powder used in the ammo. They started off using a very dirty stick powder, and later switched to cleaner ball powder. After they issued cleaning kits, and switched ammo most all of the reliability problems went away. Sadly however the M16s initial troubles in Vietnam still haunt its reputation today.


You are correct I should have pointed that out. There is much information to be found regarding lightning links, and drop in auto sears here.
http://www.quarterbore.com/
Well according to the investiagtion into the early M16's they said the ammo was the problem, but according to some experts I've talked to the lack of a chrome lined barrel was more at fault.
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Old 06-02-2007, 01:41 AM   #8
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Well according to the investiagtion into the early M16's they said the ammo was the problem, but according to some experts I've talked to the lack of a chrome lined barrel was more at fault.
Chrome lined barrels only add to the life of the bore, they don't really add to reliability.
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Old 06-02-2007, 03:13 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by BrassMonkey View Post
Chrome lined barrels only add to the life of the bore, they don't really add to reliability.
I meant to say chamber.
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:28 PM   #10
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Default Burst Fire in M16?

Helo all



RON L here = SERESURPLUS



Some good responces to the question! Yes, the AR-16 and M-16A1-A2_A3 share a lot of common details, that of Barrel, Twist and features, the M-16 in any Mod is a Select Fire Rifle, while the AR-15 is set up for Semi-auto fire only! Thats what makes the M-16 and others an ASSAULT RIFLE and the AR-15 a SEMI AUTO RIFLE OR CARBINE!


The M-16A2 and others like it, Use a Cam system that allows for the firing of the burst of 3 rounds or so, then the rifle essentially shuts off! You7 have to release the trigger to get a new Burst! The older M-16A1 and some others would let you Hold the trigger down and spray as many rounds as you had magazine capacity! Thats a way to waste a lot of ammo, got a lot of panicked troops Killed and made the Military re-examine how Full auto should be used? A Trained, preson, can fire the 3-6 shot Burst in the M-16A1 or other, but many got in Combat or got excited and used it as a "Bullet hose", this did also allo for some Jamming problems, but often it resulted in an empty rifle, so the enemy could walk up with an SKS and end the battle? The troops lacked the experience or the training to show trigger control, that along with Powder and magazine issues resulted in a lot of problems in the field with the early M-16, M-16A1 and even some A2's!


Not wanting to spam the group, but I do have a CD that shows the Difference bewteen the M-16A1, A2 and M-4 if anone would like to see the Real Player History of these Rifles and Carbines? This CD also has Great manuals for cleaning and use of all of the M-15 and AR family!




RON L

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