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Old 05-11-2013, 06:08 PM   #11
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they re are built like tanks I kinda want to see if some of the newer bolt actions can stand up against a mosin with the type of beating they gave it.

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Old 05-11-2013, 08:13 PM   #12
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Apparently none of you have ever read Hatcher's Notebook.... These results are really no surprise. Military guns were designed with a very large safety margin. I would bet any mil-surp would pass the same tests and probably do better.

This test just tells me that the weak part is the multi-part bolt body. Guns that Headspace on the rim of the cartridge (Like the Mosin) are less susceptible to receiver failure due to the fact that the case is supported all the way to the rim.

The weakness of the "Mauser" type rifles (M98 Mauser, M1903, M1917, most modern sporting rifles) is actually the cartridge case itself. Due to the rimless cartridge there is a small part that isnt supported, and in the case of a over-pressure the case ruptures and all the gases escape into the action of the gun and cause damage. Where as on a rimmed round theres nowhere for the gasses to go except out the barrel (or primer pocket) So the gun shouldnt* blow provided theres no barrel obstuction.
(Note my *, Im not saying it cant blow up, but it is very unlikely)

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Old 05-11-2013, 08:53 PM   #13
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From Hatcher's Notebook:

Quote:
We found that soft case heads were more dangerous than the high pressure cartridges. When they were fired, these soft-headed cases would spread out at the back end, or give way entirely, letting the gas at high pressure Out into the receiver, with disastrous results. When gas at 50,000 pounds is pressing on the inside of the barrel, it does not have much surface to work on, and the total load is not great. But when it gets out into the bolt-well of the receiver, whose diameter is about an inch, it has more surface to push against, and the total load is enormous. A failure of this kind may burst a weak receiver, and even if the receiver is not injured, escaping gas is likely to do damage of other kinds, such as blowing off the extractor, splintering the stock, or blowing out the magazine floor plate.

Besides soft cases, we tried the effect of high pressures. As the rifles were constructed at that time, the average gun would stand about 80,000 or 90,000 pounds. but 100,000 pound shot could be pretty well depended on to burst the receivers of almost any of the rifles then coming off the production line.

One thing made evident by these tests is the fact that the weakest feature of most modern military actions is in the cartridge itself. In The Springfield rifle the head of the cartridge case projects out of the rear end of the chamber a distance of from .147 to .148; in other words, there is a space of well over a eighth of an inch where the pressure is held in only by the brass. This is the weak point of the M1903 Springfield, M1917 Enfield, the M98 Mauser, and other high powered rifles using rimless cartridges.

The Type 99 (1939) 7.7 Japanese rifle is safer than the Springfield in this regard, because in each of these guns the supporting metal of the chamber comes to the forward edge of the extractor groove instead of leaving some of the actual cartridge case wall hanging out in the air, as do the Springfidd and Enfield.

The Krag, which uses a rimmed case, does not have this weakness. The case enters the chamber right up to the rim, and there is little chance for the cartridge to fail at the head. That is the main reason why we never, or at least hardly ever, hear of a burst Krag receiver.
A nearly simular condition is true of the Japanese Type 38 (1905) 6.5mm Arisaka rifle. It uses a semi-rim cartridge, which has only a very slight extractor groove, and the cartridge head is thus quite strong. As the cartridge walls are also particularly well supported near the head, the action of this rifle is harder to wreck than those of the Springfield, Enfield, or Mauser, all of which use the truly rimless cartridge with its weaker head construction.
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Old 05-11-2013, 10:29 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Trez View Post
It still aint no Arisaka.....
Thank god!! I have very little respect for the arisaka.
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Old 05-11-2013, 10:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trez View Post
Apparently none of you have ever read Hatcher's Notebook.... These results are really no surprise. Military guns were designed with a very large safety margin. I would bet any mil-surp would pass the same tests and probably do better.

This test just tells me that the weak part is the multi-part bolt body. Guns that Headspace on the rim of the cartridge (Like the Mosin) are less susceptible to receiver failure due to the fact that the case is supported all the way to the rim.

The weakness of the "Mauser" type rifles (M98 Mauser, M1903, M1917, most modern sporting rifles) is actually the cartridge case itself. Due to the rimless cartridge there is a small part that isnt supported, and in the case of a over-pressure the case ruptures and all the gases escape into the action of the gun and cause damage. Where as on a rimmed round theres nowhere for the gasses to go except out the barrel (or primer pocket) So the gun shouldnt* blow provided theres no barrel obstuction.
(Note my *, Im not saying it cant blow up, but it is very unlikely)

Now the '98 Mauser does support the enter case head. The 1903 does not. With the Mauser action, only a small portion of the rim edge was not enclosed by steel.
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Old 05-12-2013, 12:26 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpattersonnh View Post
Thank god!! I have very little respect for the arisaka.
Its still been proven to be the strongest bolt action.....

According to both Hatchers' and Ackleys' tests, It was the Type 38 that was the strongest, followed by the Type 99, M1917, Mauser 98, then the M1903.


Hatcher couldnt blow up the Type 38, it took Ackley welding a bolt in the barrel, it just blew the barrel off, the rifle was later rebarreled and functioned just fine....


I still dont understand, despite the facts why the Arisaka is a hated piece of "junk"...
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Old 05-12-2013, 04:53 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trez View Post
Its still been proven to be the strongest bolt action.....

According to both Hatchers' and Ackleys' tests, It was the Type 38 that was the strongest, followed by the Type 99, M1917, Mauser 98, then the M1903.


Hatcher couldnt blow up the Type 38, it took Ackley welding a bolt in the barrel, it just blew the barrel off, the rifle was later rebarreled and functioned just fine....


I still dont understand, despite the facts why the Arisaka is a hated piece of "junk"...
A couple of things made Arisaka rifles a bit frustrating and gave them a bad rep. The safety is not super handy. And many war time production rifles ended up with some bad hardening heat treatments. So they got a reputation for having some examples with bad receivers that could crack or stretch. They were really an exception to the rule, but many folks didn't want to take the gamble.

They are smooth and basically a 98 Mauser clone in many respects. So they are generally a tough design.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:58 AM   #18
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Now, I had heard the 6.5mm Carcano had
a strong action. Something about Czech hardened
steel, yadda-yadda.
Undoubtedly it is a POS, barely worthy
of mention in the same month as a
Mauser .

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Old 05-14-2013, 04:00 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by therewolf View Post
Now, I had heard the 6.5mm Carcano had
a strong action. Something about Czech hardened
steel, yadda-yadda.
Undoubtedly it is a POS, barely worthy
of mention in the same month as a
Mauser .
Well apparently the Italians can win NATO matches, with that POS rifle.....

Quote:
Neither is the Carcano unsafe, nor is it inherently inaccurate:
According to Bloomgarden, on the sporting (competitive) use of the Model 91:

"[The Royal Arms Works in Terni] might still take pride [sc. in the mid-1960s]: in an experiment a Model 91 of her own, with sight modified to make it correspondent with a modern Garand rifle manufactured by Beretta, displayed a greater accuracy than the Garand." (p. 127)

"The president of Interarms, the largest private wholesaler of ammunition and armaments [stated]: 'It's interesting to note that the Italian army NATO rifle team still uses the 6.5-mm M91 rifle in the NATO matches and still comes out in the top positions, it advises us, every year, against all other NATO teams with all the other rifle types. It uses their own original 6.5-mm cartridges which are, now, at least ten years old minimum.'" (p. 133)
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:03 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trez
It still aint no Arisaka.....
They just did an Arisaka torture test. Ran some big loads put of it then shot it with a Garand.
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