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Old 06-06-2010, 03:51 AM   #21
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I feel your pain Upersleder.

It's frustrating to be unable to bring a rifle back to a tight grouper when so many variables have changed.

It would be really sloppy work to not wash all the bluing salts out of the barrel.

Do you know if the smith removed the barrel from the action? If not, headspacing should not have changed.

Ok, here's a really basic question that addresses you shooting grip. Since you floated the barrel, any contact by your fingers on the barrel will affect your groups by a great deal.

Also, does your paper "gauge" run freely all the way to the barrel/action joint? It's amazing what a bit of pressure anywhere along the stock/barrel can do to consistent grouping.

Do have a smith cut a new crown for you.

I hope you find the solution.

Good luck.

Tim

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Old 06-07-2010, 06:00 PM   #22
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But try n o to use the same gunsmith as the guy who 'broke' the rifle while re-bluing it. Somehow I would be dubious of their promises of a perfect re-crowning.

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Old 06-08-2010, 02:58 PM   #23
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It sounds to me as if the barrel was not cleaned out and oiled after bluing. In other words, the re-blue damaged the barrel. I would not waste any more money on crowning etc. but would have the rifle re-barreled by a competent 'smith (the bluer was, apparently, not competent). GD

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Old 11-29-2010, 04:36 PM   #24
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It's possible that the 'smith allowed some of the bluing solution to enter the bore. Remember this always...bluing salts are highly corrosive. They are acid, period. If the bore wasn't properly plugged before immersion into the bluing bath, that would have allowed the solution to damage the bore, hence opening up the door to a bad situation.

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Old 11-29-2010, 09:58 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasPatriot View Post
It's possible that the 'smith allowed some of the bluing solution to enter the bore. Remember this always...bluing salts are highly corrosive. They are acid, period. If the bore wasn't properly plugged before immersion into the bluing bath, that would have allowed the solution to damage the bore, hence opening up the door to a bad situation.


Bluing salts are NOT acid. Period.

They are a base. The bore does not need tp be plugged for two reasons. One the blackening(the proper term) process causes no, that's zero, dimensional changes in the steel. Two, bores are either chrome lined or so highly polished that the salts have miniscule if any effect on the steel.

I have blued hundreds of firearms. A barrel's bore straight out of the bath is bright.

Thinking that a barrel's bore was somehow "eaten" up by the process is incorrect.

The chemicals used in slow rust bluing are acid and care must be taken to keep it out of bores and chambers.

The bores must be plugged in the fume bluing or parkerizing process as the acids in both will damage them.

I hope this eliminates one of the causes of your barrel damage.
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Old 11-29-2010, 10:49 PM   #26
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Talk about opening an old thread....

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Old 11-30-2010, 02:14 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timn View Post
Bluing salts are NOT acid. Period.

They are a base. The bore does not need tp be plugged for two reasons. One the blackening(the proper term) process causes no, that's zero, dimensional changes in the steel. Two, bores are either chrome lined or so highly polished that the salts have miniscule if any effect on the steel.

I have blued hundreds of firearms. A barrel's bore straight out of the bath is bright.

Thinking that a barrel's bore was somehow "eaten" up by the process is incorrect.

The chemicals used in slow rust bluing are acid and care must be taken to keep it out of bores and chambers.

The bores must be plugged in the fume bluing or parkerizing process as the acids in both will damage them.

I hope this eliminates one of the causes of your barrel damage.

I stand corrected. I was always taught that the term Blackening was used primarily in Europe.In as much as the acid concept, My bluing solution will eat holes in skin and I learned that it will readily dissolve aluminum tank stands in a heart beat. This is what leads me to believe it is an acid. I had some aluminum tubing that was laying around. I built some sturdy stands for my bluing tanks.The solution spilled on them ate them up and I walked into a big mess. I also have to use a neutralizing solution to stop the process, otherwise I wind up with pitting. I ruined an otherwise good barrel on a Pre64 because I allowed the salts to stay in the bore unchecked. Anyway, the only finishing I do these days is rust bluing. What formula do you use? Perhaps a change in formulation would be called for on my end. Thanks for the info!!
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Old 11-30-2010, 03:04 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timn View Post
Bluing salts are NOT acid. Period.

They are a base.
You are right, salts arent acidic, but they are CORROSIVE. As all bases are.
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Why do you feel it necessary to list your guns?

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Old 11-30-2010, 03:33 AM   #29
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TexPat..
After i posted my reply, I read it again and it sounded a bit harsh. i apologize for the tone. It wasn't intended to be smart a$$.

Also, the proper term for the process is blacking. Again, my mistake.
The term started in England but was widely used by early American smiths.
We use bluing as a common term today, much like string trimmers are called Weedeaters.
There is an actual bluing process called carbona bluing. It requires some fairly exotic ingredients (sperm whale oil, charcoal and cyanide) and a kiln. It is mostly a color achieved by heat, much like nitre bluing.
Only a handful of smiths still do it and it is a gorgeous finish. My friend Paul at Ron's Gun Shop in Wisconsin does a beautiful of it.

The hot bluing salts today are a mixture of sodium hydroxide (lye) and fertilizer. Generally either ammonium sulfate of ammonium nitrate.

And yes, they will aggressively attack any metal except steel. If you happen to accidental put aluminum in your tank it will bubble like crazy and soon disappear. You can then kiss goodbye to your expensive tank of solution. It is badly contaminated. Ask me how I know.

I used Pilkington's rust blue solution for years, then decided to make my own. I found the old Neidner formula and made up a batch. I like it far better than any of the commercial solutions in terms of color, speed, and forgiving nature.

It is basically a mixture of hydrochloric and nitric acids and iron diluted with distilled water. if you decide to make your own, do it outside. It gets a bit violent and produces a very corrosive gas for a few minutes.

If you are looking to expand your knowledge of bluing processes, there is a good book titled Firearm blueing and browning" by R.H. Angier.
Some of the material is archaic but it's a wealth of information.

Tim

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Old 11-30-2010, 09:09 AM   #30
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Tim, no offense taken. I am always ready to learn and not one bit afraid to admit when I'm wrong. I have tried Nitre Bluing and failed miserably. What I was attempting to reproduce is that milky blue finish that S&W used to produce. I was attempting it on a Winchester 97 that had been condemned to behind a pickup seat and was so screwed up it wouldn't even cycle.You know what I'm talking about. I have a first run Model 29 that I bought farther back than I care to recall. It has that finish so fine that it has a milky sheen to it in the right light. So deep that it appeared bottomless. Unfortunately, they don't produce it any longer in this world of mass produced crap. Any idea of their process back then? I rust blued that 97 finally, but still want to reproduce that old S&W finish.

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