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-   -   Model 70 Bolt/Extractor Problem (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f33/model-70-bolt-extractor-problem-26954/)

tatasta 05-08-2010 09:17 PM

Model 70 Bolt/Extractor Problem
 
Hello,
I recently bought a Winchester Model 70 300 Win Mag with the pre 64 action. I have been having a problem with getting the bolt to close and lock down when feeding a loose round into the chamber.

When I load the rounds into the magazine, the action works perfectly. It locks down and fires without a hitch. However, when shooting at the range and just laying a round on top of the magazine, the bolt will not completely lock down. I can tell what is happening is the extractor will not pop over the rim of the cartridge. It is like the area of the chamber that the extractor travels in is too tight to let the extractor flex outward enough to catch the cartridge rim. I can see evidence of wear on the outside tip of the extractor where it is contacting the wall of the receiver.

I put the bolt out of my other Model 70 in the rifle to see if the 300's bolt was the problem or if it was in the receiver. Well, the bolt out of my other 70 did the exact same thing. So, obviously, the issue lies in the tolerances of my receiver.

So, what now? Can this be fixed? Can I remove some of the thickness of the extractor where it is showing wear? Or will a gunsmith need to work on the inside of the receiver?

As noted, when feeding from the magazine, it operates fine. But if I feed a loose round, it will not close. This results in the round sticking in the chamber and having to be rodded out from the muzzle. Not good for a hunting rifle.

Thanks in advance for any help

danf_fl 05-09-2010 07:53 AM

Some firearms should never be loaded by forcing the extractor over the case, and should only be loaded by using the mag. I don't know if your is one of them.

greydog 05-09-2010 02:45 PM

The Model 70, regardless of action type (controlled feed or push feed) should allow the extractor to snap over a the rim of a cartridge in the chamber. I suspect your extractor claw is a bit too long. The extractor should be long enough to retain a cartridge in the boltface with about .010" of flex. Set up right, the cartridges should feed up under the extractor out of the magazine and still allow the extractor to snap over under the circumstances you describe.
If you plan to cut the extractor back yourself, go easy at it and don't take too much off. GD

stalkingbear 05-09-2010 05:27 PM

If I was you I'd not try to feed loose cartridges. Feed them straight from the magazine and you'll be ok. The rifle is controlled round feed and was designed to be fed from the magazine. Heavy use of feeding them loose will eventually damage your extractor.

brandy 05-09-2010 07:17 PM

Buy a new Williams extractor Brownells. Every M-70
 
should be upgraded to them. Especially the newer "Classics" as they were not forged. End of all problems.

Williams Firearms Company Inc.

greydog 05-10-2010 09:03 PM

Although the Model 70 is a CRF action, it was designed from the outset to allow for single loading without loading out of the magazine. This, because many shooters liked to have the option. In addition, the inability of the Mauser 98 to be singly loaded in this manner (not exactly true. The Mauser could be single loaded if you did it right but it was not reallt designed to be so loaded) was considered by many to be a shortcoming. The switch to a Williams extractor would probably cure the problem but it isn't really necessary. I will say the Williams extractor is indeed a quality product and well worth buying.
By the way, I have one model 70 (a 1938 model)which is on it's third barrel. Most shots were loaded singly. It's still going strong and I'm quite sure it will outlast me. GD

Jamesaritchie 05-10-2010 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tatasta (Post 282527)
Hello,
I recently bought a Winchester Model 70 300 Win Mag with the pre 64 action. I have been having a problem with getting the bolt to close and lock down when feeding a loose round into the chamber.

When I load the rounds into the magazine, the action works perfectly. It locks down and fires without a hitch. However, when shooting at the range and just laying a round on top of the magazine, the bolt will not completely lock down. I can tell what is happening is the extractor will not pop over the rim of the cartridge. It is like the area of the chamber that the extractor travels in is too tight to let the extractor flex outward enough to catch the cartridge rim. I can see evidence of wear on the outside tip of the extractor where it is contacting the wall of the receiver.

I put the bolt out of my other Model 70 in the rifle to see if the 300's bolt was the problem or if it was in the receiver. Well, the bolt out of my other 70 did the exact same thing. So, obviously, the issue lies in the tolerances of my receiver.

So, what now? Can this be fixed? Can I remove some of the thickness of the extractor where it is showing wear? Or will a gunsmith need to work on the inside of the receiver?

As noted, when feeding from the magazine, it operates fine. But if I feed a loose round, it will not close. This results in the round sticking in the chamber and having to be rodded out from the muzzle. Not good for a hunting rifle.

Thanks in advance for any help

Most rifles and handguns will chamber a round this way, but it's never, ever a good idea. Forcing the extracter can cause all sorts of problems.

The problem here isn't with the bolt, unless some previous owner also practiced this method of loading too often, it's with just laying theround on top like that.

It's really this simple. Just because you can do something does not mean you should. Feed only from the magazine, and your rifle will love you for a lot of years.

Jamesaritchie 05-10-2010 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greydog (Post 283261)
Although the Model 70 is a CRF action, it was designed from the outset to allow for single loading without loading out of the magazine. This, because many shooters liked to have the option. In addition, the inability of the Mauser 98 to be singly loaded in this manner (not exactly true. The Mauser could be single loaded if you did it right but it was not reallt designed to be so loaded) was considered by many to be a shortcoming. The switch to a Williams extractor would probably cure the problem but it isn't really necessary. I will say the Williams extractor is indeed a quality product and well worth buying.
By the way, I have one model 70 (a 1938 model)which is on it's third barrel. Most shots were loaded singly. It's still going strong and I'm quite sure it will outlast me. GD

Yes, it was "designed" this way, but it nevertheless caused problems fairly often. Yours may outlast you, but there's a luck factor involved. I've seen a bunch of older 70s start having problems because of single loading without using the magazine.

greydog 05-11-2010 03:11 PM

Luck factor, my Aunt Fanny! In the over thirty years since I started gunsmithing professionally and the over forty years I've been shooting Model 70's, I have not seen anything like "a bunch of older 70's start having problems from single loading without using the magazine". Virtually every target rifle shooter who uses a model 70 action, loads singly; just as those who used Springfields did.
The model 70 I described is not the only one I have and is certainly not the only one with which I'm familiar. I've built dozens of rifles, both hunting and target oriented, on model 70 actions. I will again state, most definitely, the Model 70 should be capable of being single loaded and was designed to be so. Further, there is nothing wrong with the practice and the perpetuation of this "myth" is just that, the perpetuation of a myth. GD

danf_fl 05-11-2010 03:36 PM

GD, Sorry to raise you dander. I am not saying that the 70's cannot load a without the mag. My preference is if there is a round holding device (mag, tube, whatever)then I will use it. How someone loads their firearm is their business, as long as they load in a safe manner.


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