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Old 01-25-2012, 03:37 PM   #21
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As a gunsmith without CNC reamers are the way to go for me. If I could get a boring bar long enough, and small enough, to cut the leade, neck, shoulder and case dimensions for small chambers like .223 the amount of time it takes to set-up and account for flexing of the bar eats my profit margin quickly. A well cared for reamer will do many barrels quickly and cost efficiently for me. This is especially true of processes like barrel setbacks where I just need to run the reamer a few thousandths to achieve the chamber. Gunsmithing is only profitable if you can do a lot of work. Since most shops are one man operations like mine, for every chargeable labor hour I also have to answer the phones, sweep the floor, order parts, chit-chat with customers about every conceivable topic, a hundred other things, and still keep the lights on. Being able to afford CNC is just out of the question for me unfortunately. I buy the reamers and guages I use regularly and rent those I don't.

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Old 01-25-2012, 04:56 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by CubDriver451
With regard to those advocating the use of CNC machines for barrel work, something to keep in mind is that when you chuck a barrel into a three jaw chuck, you are assuming that the bore is concentric to the OD of the barrel. This is rarely the case with factory barrels. The best that I have seven was on a savage barrel. Concentric to within about .003 if I recall correctly. The worst that I have seen was in excess of .015 out of concentricity.

IMHO, the correct way to chamber a rifle is to use a lathe that has a short enough headstock that the barrel can be indicated to center on both ends. Make a "spider" for the rear of the spindle and use a four jaw chuck to hold the barrel. Indicate inside the bore on both ends until it is centered to within .0005. Now you KNOW that the chamber will be aligned with the bore, not just the OD of the barrel. While slight misalignment may not cause a gun to shoot poorly, it will never make it shoot better.

I use an old Southbend 10" toolroom lathe for all my barrel work. The headstock is short enough that typical rifle barrels are easily indicated on both ends. For shorter barrels, I made a very thin four jaw chuck to be able to accomplish the same. With this setup, I can perfectly align barrels as short as 16"
I didnt know the id and the od could be off that much. That would deffently cause a problem.
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Old 01-25-2012, 04:59 PM   #23
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As a gunsmith without CNC reamers are the way to go for me. If I could get a boring bar long enough, and small enough, to cut the leade, neck, shoulder and case dimensions for small chambers like .223 the amount of time it takes to set-up and account for flexing of the bar eats my profit margin quickly. A well cared for reamer will do many barrels quickly and cost efficiently for me. This is especially true of processes like barrel setbacks where I just need to run the reamer a few thousandths to achieve the chamber. Gunsmithing is only profitable if you can do a lot of work. Since most shops are one man operations like mine, for every chargeable labor hour I also have to answer the phones, sweep the floor, order parts, chit-chat with customers about every conceivable topic, a hundred other things, and still keep the lights on. Being able to afford CNC is just out of the question for me unfortunately. I buy the reamers and guages I use regularly and rent those I don't.
Good point, y do it if you can't make money.
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Old 01-25-2012, 05:37 PM   #24
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Good point, y do it if you can't make money.
This is what we have been tryin to tell you...most of us smiths dont make enough money at it/do enough business to make it worth the time.

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Old 01-25-2012, 05:48 PM   #25
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Hey jonas check you emails bud

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Old 01-25-2012, 06:07 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Josh1158 View Post
Im a machinest I make over engineered medical medical parts every day. I have to hold +/- .00015 all the time. Im having a hard time understanding why so much barrel work is done with reamers. I feel that a normal boring bar would do fine. Can someone please explane this to me.
You should know, your the MACHINIST.......Reamers don't all ways hold the tol. due to the wear and drill size before reaming. And a run out wiil occur if the holes are not concentric. Drilled and reamed is faster than the drill and bore. Thats why you pay more for a gun thats hand crafted. I'm and oil field machinist and I do know how to fix things...... But they won't let me run for President as I'm Pro abortion and pro Gun......And I'm all for the DEATH penalty...... Maybe I need to go back to work....
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Old 01-25-2012, 11:28 PM   #27
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I didnt know the id and the od could be off that much. That would deffently cause a problem.
Josh,

Call me anal retentive, overly critical or just plain picky, but I think it is absolutely unforgivable that the vast majority of factory rifles in current production fall into the category of absolute CRAP!

With the precision equipment that is available, there is absolutely no reason that manufacturers should have tolerances that are as wide as the Grand Canyon. As a machinist (presumably a competent and conscientious one) you know as well as I do, that with a good rigid setup, good tooling and a sharp operator, tolerances can easily be held to +/- .002" on a bad day. The problem is that most manufacturers wont put a machinist on the machines, because that costs more in labor. Instead, they hire machine OPERATORS. There is a big difference. Modern gun manufacturers are more concerned with numbers and flash than they are with actually building a quality firearm. Look at any modern production rifle with a somewhat critical eye. Look at the fit and finish on what you are spending considerable amounts of money on, and tell me if you think you are buying quality, or if you are buying "good enough".

I have seen a lot of bolt action rifles that cost near or over $1,000 that won't shoot within MOA at 100 yards. Now compare that to my 6" barreled Freedom Arms revolver that has proven on many occasions that it is capable of MOA accuracy. This from a gun that has five different chambers that rotate into alignment with the barrel, not to mention the very LOOOONG locktime of a single action revolver. Granted, the Freedom Arms revolvers start out at around $2,000, but look at the mechanical difficulty of making a revolver shoot better than a lot of bolt action rifles. Then look at the precision fit and finish of every single part of the freedom arms. Which gun looks more expensive now?

In defense of the average firearms manufacturer, most shooters do not require extreme precision, and a great many won't know or care what a well fit and finished product looks like. If it goes bang and they can hit Bambi at 100 yards or less, they think it's great. They have to concern themselves with making enough money to keep the doors open, and I understand that fully, but a lot of issues with production guns can be addressed with little or no financial impact on the manufacturer. Some of them would even save them money in the long run. Improve tolerances and QA inspections, better training for machine operators, make a better product and I will bet that they would increase there share of the market and make even more than they currently are. Who wouldn't rather buy a high quality item at the same or near the cost of a lower quality product?

OK, end of rant...

JW
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Old 01-26-2012, 12:54 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by CubDriver451

Josh,

Call me anal retentive, overly critical or just plain picky, but I think it is absolutely unforgivable that the vast majority of factory rifles in current production fall into the category of absolute CRAP!

With the precision equipment that is available, there is absolutely no reason that manufacturers should have tolerances that are as wide as the Grand Canyon. As a machinist (presumably a competent and conscientious one) you know as well as I do, that with a good rigid setup, good tooling and a sharp operator, tolerances can easily be held to +/- .002" on a bad day. The problem is that most manufacturers wont put a machinist on the machines, because that costs more in labor. Instead, they hire machine OPERATORS. There is a big difference. Modern gun manufacturers are more concerned with numbers and flash than they are with actually building a quality firearm. Look at any modern production rifle with a somewhat critical eye. Look at the fit and finish on what you are spending considerable amounts of money on, and tell me if you think you are buying quality, or if you are buying "good enough".

I have seen a lot of bolt action rifles that cost near or over $1,000 that won't shoot within MOA at 100 yards. Now compare that to my 6" barreled Freedom Arms revolver that has proven on many occasions that it is capable of MOA accuracy. This from a gun that has five different chambers that rotate into alignment with the barrel, not to mention the very LOOOONG locktime of a single action revolver. Granted, the Freedom Arms revolvers start out at around $2,000, but look at the mechanical difficulty of making a revolver shoot better than a lot of bolt action rifles. Then look at the precision fit and finish of every single part of the freedom arms. Which gun looks more expensive now?

In defense of the average firearms manufacturer, most shooters do not require extreme precision, and a great many won't know or care what a well fit and finished product looks like. If it goes bang and they can hit Bambi at 100 yards or less, they think it's great. They have to concern themselves with making enough money to keep the doors open, and I understand that fully, but a lot of issues with production guns can be addressed with little or no financial impact on the manufacturer. Some of them would even save them money in the long run. Improve tolerances and QA inspections, better training for machine operators, make a better product and I will bet that they would increase there share of the market and make even more than they currently are. Who wouldn't rather buy a high quality item at the same or near the cost of a lower quality product?

OK, end of rant...

JW
I totally agree. Thats bs. I thought the standard was .005 but I've only made aerospace and medical. Ive only made gun parts once but I can't go into detail on that. I've made broad heads for gander mountain before and they were better then that. I beleave there called blood rain or something like that.
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