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Old 06-30-2013, 08:07 PM   #11
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I have a friend that is a tool and die man that has been going on about this for a year or so. His thought is with tool steel being much better than it was years ago it can be more likely now days to make more than one bbl that can have similar enough marks that it could be argued that they have the wrong gun.
I don't see it. I admit I'm no tool maker but still....there are so many other variables to consider other than the bbl and chamber of a handgun. Firing pins/strikers, extractors etc make it a lot harder to deny the bad gun even if you could make more than one bbl with ther same lans & grooves. Plus the little things we all do with our guns. The manner of cleaning, frequency of cleaning, type of ammo used over time. All these things make a gun a lot more individual.

I guess if one was to use a disposable bbl and keep your matching number bbl for if someone asks to see your gun.

There was some book or magazine I remember years ago that this German guy had figured out a way to wrap rounds in a manner that kept the bullet from touching the bbl. It's been years and I can't remember the specifics anymore. It seems though that was with a rifle not a handgun. But I honestly can't remember anymore. It's an interesting concept though Basically the paper wrapped round would use the paper to grab the rifling and spin the round and fly off after the round left the bbl at some point. It seemed an awful lot of work and I can't believe it was very accurate but it was supposed to work as an untraceable round.

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Old 06-30-2013, 08:25 PM   #12
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Junkie- guess you have never seen these, huh?

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That is the Remington Accelerator. Made in 30-06, .308, and 30-30. The projectile is a 55 grain .25 caliber bullet, sitting in a plastic sabot. The sabot leaves the bullet about 18 inches from the muzzle. The .308 had a claimed velocity of 4,200 fps, the 30-06 about 4,500.

Rifling never touches the bullet, only the sabot.

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Old 06-30-2013, 08:30 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by c3shooter View Post
Junkie- guess you have never seen these, huh?

Attachment 108307

That is the Remington Accelerator. Made in 30-06, .308, and 30-30. The projectile is a 55 grain .25 caliber bullet, sitting in a plastic sabot. The sabot leaves the bullet about 18 inches from the muzzle. The .308 had a claimed velocity of 4,200 fps, the 30-06 about 4,500.

Rifling never touches the bullet, only the sabot.
i have seen them before, and have several times thought about buying some, but are they accurate?
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Old 06-30-2013, 08:44 PM   #14
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And what is the purpose? They are faster than the normal bullet for that caliber? If so, to what end?

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Old 06-30-2013, 09:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumJunkie
I have a friend that is a tool and die man that has been going on about this for a year or so. His thought is with tool steel being much better than it was years ago it can be more likely now days to make more than one bbl that can have similar enough marks that it could be argued that they have the wrong gun.
I don't see it. I admit I'm no tool maker but still....there are so many other variables to consider other than the bbl and chamber of a handgun. Firing pins/strikers, extractors etc make it a lot harder to deny the bad gun even if you could make more than one bbl with ther same lans & grooves. Plus the little things we all do with our guns. The manner of cleaning, frequency of cleaning, type of ammo used over time. All these things make a gun a lot more individual.

I guess if one was to use a disposable bbl and keep your matching number bbl for if someone asks to see your gun.

There was some book or magazine I remember years ago that this German guy had figured out a way to wrap rounds in a manner that kept the bullet from touching the bbl. It's been years and I can't remember the specifics anymore. It seems though that was with a rifle not a handgun. But I honestly can't remember anymore. It's an interesting concept though Basically the paper wrapped round would use the paper to grab the rifling and spin the round and fly off after the round left the bbl at some point. It seemed an awful lot of work and I can't believe it was very accurate but it was supposed to work as an untraceable round.
The tool and die guys argument was my thought when I first posed the question. Extractor and firing pin marks are only relevant if you have the brass. Maybe there are still microscopic differences between barrels that came off the same machine one right after the other but I'm not convinced they would show up on a bullet.

Anyhow, thanks to everyone who posted. Good food for thought.
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:29 PM   #16
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The tool and die guys argument was my thought when I first posed the question. Extractor and firing pin marks are only relevant if you have the brass. Maybe there are still microscopic differences between barrels that came off the same machine one right after the other but I'm not convinced they would show up on a bullet.

Anyhow, thanks to everyone who posted. Good food for thought.
Well..Like I said I"m no tool maker. My frfiend is very good at what he does s I really have no way to doubt him. The idea that the same tool will make more barrels today then they did even 30 years ago does make it a valid question. Being I don't see many peopel in a shooting hunt down their brass though I think that is sometime to think about. Brass is much softer than the steel in the gun. So it's not far fetched to think that there can be a unique transfer of tool marks etc.When yo uare looking at slugs and cases under high magnification I would imagine those little marks will show up just fine..

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Junkie- guess you have never seen these, huh?
I've seen and read about the ammo before but I've not handled or used it. So I have no working knowledge of how well it works.I had forgot about those truthfully. I got on the paper wrap guy and went and let my CRS syndrome take control again.
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:49 PM   #17
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Paper patched bullets were very common for big bores rifles around 1890-1910 era.

Re: Accelerators- accuracy was about as good as the parent caliber/rifle. Use? Faster than crap varmint round. Standard 30-06 is about 2,600 fps. These were 4,500 fps. For some years, they laid claim to being THE fastest factory rifle load in the world. May still be. My .220 Swift runs about 4,100 with really hot loads. Even the .204 Ruger is not THAT fast.

You CAN buy the sabots and reload your own- which makes some very interesting 7.62x39, and 7.62x25 ammo.....

BTW- when a forensic investigator is comparing bullets, this is what he sees. The microscope has 2 sets of lenses, lets him put one bullet under each, and see if they match when being rotated. Red line is the end of one bullet, start of another. HIGHLY magnified.

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Old 07-01-2013, 03:43 AM   #18
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Popular Science or Popular Mechanics did a test were they sent test bullets and arms to the best crime labs in the country and they almost all came back with different results?

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Old 07-01-2013, 08:20 AM   #19
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Got a link to the story?

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Old 07-02-2013, 02:46 AM   #20
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I read it the good old fashon way

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