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Let's Debate Knife Defense


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Old 01-31-2010, 05:50 PM   #41
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Thanks for the info Francisco. I have always regarded the D/O knives with a smirk and a casual glance. I don't know anyone that had actually ever bought one, so I was wondering what your taste was on them since you are so in the know.

Thank you!

JD
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Old 01-31-2010, 07:54 PM   #42
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They're certainly not my cup of tea. However, I do admit I'm biased. I don't like over the top publicity and I don't find purely tactical folders aesthetically appealing. I aknowledge their usefulness, but I enjoy my carbon steel slipjoints a lot more.
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Old 02-07-2010, 01:18 AM   #43
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Default Cut yourself first

I was taught young:

if the other guy pulls a knife? ...
Take you own knife out and slash your own outside left forearm
(I be right-handed)

...not too deep a cut - not too long a slash = enough to draw blood

raise your now bleeding forearm and shake blood at him..

say, "I'm bleeding"

pause ... smile

then say, "Your turn"

x
the point was made that any rational reasonable person would then choose another course.

If'n this other 'knife-wielder' did not stop, - having seen my blood - I'd know I was in a serious amount of very deep ****:
I would be under no illusions.
I would know to act forcefully, no holds' barred , no fouls - no prisoners

literally knife and death

This is the specific knowledge that 'good guys' seem to miss , going in.
finding out 'too late' is not good enough
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Old 02-07-2010, 06:33 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scare_Rab View Post
I was taught young:

if the other guy pulls a knife? ...
Take you own knife out and slash your own outside left forearm
(I be right-handed)

...not too deep a cut - not too long a slash = enough to draw blood

raise your now bleeding forearm and shake blood at him..

say, "I'm bleeding"

pause ... smile

then say, "Your turn"

x
the point was made that any rational reasonable person would then choose another course.

If'n this other 'knife-wielder' did not stop, - having seen my blood - I'd know I was in a serious amount of very deep ****:
I would be under no illusions.
I would know to act forcefully, no holds' barred , no fouls - no prisoners

literally knife and death

This is the specific knowledge that 'good guys' seem to miss , going in.
finding out 'too late' is not good enough
Surely you jest??
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Old 02-07-2010, 11:11 AM   #45
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Default No jest

jest? hmmm . No

Sitting in a drug rehab many years ago, learning to live clean, learning the lessons of appropriate violence:
  • right person
  • right place
  • right time
  • right amount

'3' out of '4' is not good enough:

Sitting there one day, listening to men blather on about all the things their Dad's had taught them: hunting, fishing, tying knots, shaving, reading cutting wood lighting fires ZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZz

Apocryphal perhaps; my Dad showed me the "recovery position" before I went to school: Seeing someone lying flat on their back -face up, having just been KO'd "he rolled 'em over face down, one arm up , one knee up & said to me "Don't need these ****ers' drowning in their own blood"...
causes too much hassle with the Cops.

So "Joking" about 'cut yourself to show them the seriousness of their course of action?
No.

However...
in later years, a man I respect more said to me " someone pulls a knife on you?? then You 'don't even want them to know you have one too"
He suggested I practice one-handed opening, (the one point of having a lanyard (with the lanyard always hanging out of my pocket: the folder is thus sneakily available)
  • act real timid (Whilst getting *my knife out & open)
  • use my other arm are as a shield if needed
  • get my knife into him early & often
  • if he's still moving - keep putting it in him
  • twist pull blade out push back in twist & out (repeat)
  • check he has no scumbags mates looking for an easy win
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Old 02-07-2010, 04:57 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scare_Rab View Post
jest? hmmm . No

However...
in later years, a man I respect more said to me " someone pulls a knife on you?? then You 'don't even want them to know you have one too"
He suggested I practice one-handed opening, (the one point of having a lanyard (with the lanyard always hanging out of my pocket: the folder is thus sneakily available)
  • act real timid (Whilst getting *my knife out & open)
  • use my other arm are as a shield if needed
  • get my knife into him early & often
  • if he's still moving - keep putting it in him
  • twist pull blade out push back in twist & out (repeat)
  • check he has no scumbags mates looking for an easy win
Ahh, very nice knife fighting tactics......especially for convicts in a prison yard.

If you indeed find yourself in a confrontation and someone pulls a knife, remember "there are no rules, win quickly." That would involve skilled dis-armament of your attacker and/or equal force with one's own knife, in a probable, serious lethal situation, if that is indeed your only choice of weapon.

You sound like a man who does not like to play games, so why not go instantly for the final kill move, quickly and efficiently, by opening his throat and face, finalizing your attack? Now, if you want to play with him, continue to stab, jab and slash?

Thoughts?

Jack
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Old 02-07-2010, 06:09 PM   #47
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It is my understanding that when threatened with physical violence whether it be buy knife, gun, fist or a car, etc. the final outcome perpatrated upon the assailant whether he/she is stabbed, shot, clubbed, pummeled, etc. and whether the assailant is maimed, crippled, killed, etc. has to be within the boundaries of what the assailant was going to do to the victim. This means that by how the law looks at it, the victims response to the threat should not over exceed how much damage is done to the assailant.

If he has a knife and you do as well, if you successfully defend yourself and end up stabbing the assailant and the assailant is incapacitated and no longer perceived as a threat you cannot stab, slash, disfigure or kill the assailant because you have gone beyond what was needed in order to defend yourself.

If it is a one on one situation with no witnesses that is a whole different story. That's why you hear that if a perp is breaking into your house you better shoot and kill him within the domicile otherwise you could be brought up on charges of murder/manslaughter, let alone a lawsuite violating the perps civil rights.

Dead men tell no tales, unless there are witnesses.
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Old 02-16-2010, 02:39 PM   #48
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Agreed.

However, the matter of self-defense is not to kill, but to survive. Let's say, I find a guy with a gun in the lobby of my home fillin' a bag with my stuff (yep, sthereotipical thief). He/she has a gun, but it's not pointed at you, nor to anyone of your family. If you decide to kill him/her right there, you're committin' murder.

It's not a matter of social sense or stuff. The guy's a threat, but a minimum, not currently harmin' you or your family. So killin' the guy without previous provocation is actual murder.

Now, you there can try and sneak up behind the guy and crash his/her head against a wall or put him/her to see stars with your baseball bat. Or you can turn on the lights, aim him/her with your gun. You defended your home properly, without the need to kill someone. Also skipppin' long tiresome visits to the state court.

It's the same on the streets. I mean, a thug with most of their senses will run away if they find out their victim is willin' to fight back. Any weapon, even a gun can be used in non-lethal ways.

This case, the knives. I own a 6,6 inches-long bowie knife. It's a big knife; the size'n'shape's enough to make someone think twice. If that doesn't works, try again with deep slash in an arm or a leg. If the guy keeps on, it's probably a nutcase. Anyways, if the guy still try to injure you, stab the guy in the lower torso. The wound would be enough deep to make it sing loud. But it will not be lethal at first shot, the guy may get medical attention. Once medical treatment is over, you can have your lawer ready to squeeze out the guy's pocket and send they to jail for a while.

Did I needed to kill someone to make fun of their existence while defendin' mine?
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Old 03-07-2010, 06:14 PM   #49
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What I have learned from my early teenage years to the age of 53 is the following. Most attacks to the average person are not telegraphed or for someone with a keen sense of danger they are distracted by accomplices, partners in crime. The most common weapon is a screwdriver, it cheap and not perceived as a weapon when seen in a pocket. Most training addresses attacks usually from a distance of 21 feet giving the good guy time to have their folder open and ready to defend. Going back to common attacks on the average person who may take one or two classes and not train has very low odds of surviving.

With that said when I teach an eight hour beginner class I know full well that out of 10 students only forty percent at best will continue with more training and practice while the other sixty percent will not even train especially if you give them too much. Now why would an instructor give too much? Students will drive that as they want lots of techniques for the $$$’s they are spending on training. My beginner class focuses on empty hand techniques for the first four hours of the class where the student learns how to defend without no weapons using techniques which work off instinct and then trained. Another two hours combines what has been taught in the first four hours with transitioning to their weapon of choice. Their weapon of choice might be a concealed firearm, Kubaton, LLC, collapsible baton or pocket folder. One hour is then devoted to working defensively with a folder and the remainder for rehashing. Throughout the day, I will do various demonstrations on things like showing what happens if you are cut using chickens. Also give them previews of what I teach in advance classes which is not really advance in that you learn more techniques but more on the lines of tying the basics together. For perspective, a commonly taught drill might be 1-4-12 passing or direct. One student is the attacker while the other the defender flowing from one angle to the next then over again. As the student becomes proficient with these types of drills, I will show them how to deviate and deal with chaos by learning to (or attempting too) control the situation which I will admit is not easy but may be possible. Digestion, what works well in a static controlled environment will usually fall apart somewhat in a dynamic situation but if the techniques are right for the situation and done properly even with the dynamics will work. There are millions of variables that can make something work or fail and can be argued day in and day out.

What makes a good folder for self-defense? I think that any sharp knife that has a lock which will not collapse with a handle that is not slippery and a handle which extends past your hand can be used for self-defense. The blade should be at least three inches in length, opens easily under stress and can is accessible when needed.

Here in Oregon in most places a civilian can carry a baton which in my opinion is much better than a folder but can come back to haunt you in a court of law if not used in a responsible manner. Even if used properly can be used against you without good legal council. I teach baton but only after they have been through several other classes and have the proper mindset, otherwise they cannot attend this class.

Bottom line is get trained and practice and hope you never have to use them.

Lastly, the following is from Bram Frank which I think makes a lot of sense.
  • Human anatomical function is fixed: form follows function
  • Combat is an ever-changing variable: Combat must be simple
  • Combat is spontaneous: one cannot learn pre-recorded responses to spontaneous events
  • Learning must be conceptual: combat is ever changing and never the same twice Using these principles as a framework
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