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-   -   Wwb 7.62? (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f30/wwb-7-62-a-12908/)

RL357Mag 04-15-2009 11:28 AM

Wwb 7.62?
 
Has anyone ever seen Winchester White Box 147 gr. FMJ 7.62 ammo? Has anyone ever shot any? I bought a DPMS LR-308B for my son and asked him to pick up 100 rds. of cheap .308 ammo to break it in, as per DPMS instructions. When he showed up with the ammo I was surprised to see 7.62 on the box - not 7.62 x 51mm, or 308 Win., the box just says 7.62! Anyway, I have the same gun, and recently shot a .40" group with reloads, It generally shoots about 1" with factory 150gr. and 168gr. ammo , so when during the course of firing the first 100 rds, the gun failed to group less than 4-6" at 100 yds. I was beginning to get worried (and I could tell he was getting disappointed too) that I had a bad barrel. This pissed me off because he just got back from Iraq and I have been telling him for the past 4 months how accurate MY gun is and that I was still waiting for his gun to ship. Finally the gun arrives when he's on leave and it doesn't group worth a sh!t. To make a long story short, after the break in period I break out a box of my reloads which I specifically made for my FR-8 Mauser, using Herters 125gr. HP ammo that I've had for 20+ years. His first two shots are touching, the next 5 shots are in the same hole, and then he has two flyers. WTF? Is Winchester quality control now worse than Wolf??? I'm glad that I got 100 fresh brass cases to reload with, but he paid $14.97 per box for crap that groups like an AK.

robocop10mm 04-15-2009 12:37 PM

WWB is basic 7.62 NATO spec ammo. It may shoot well in one gun and very poorly in another. You also have to consider this was during the break in period. Did you shoot/clean one round at a time like many recommend?

You might try the WWB again in a while to see if it was break in related or truly ammo related. I have read that NATO spec ammo intended for MG use has a designed in dispersion. One does not want match accuracy from an area weapon, you want a "cone of fire".

I venture to say that if you were to pull down the NATO ammo you would see a relatively high variance in powder charges and/or bullet weights.

RL357Mag 04-16-2009 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robocop10mm (Post 94832)
WWB is basic 7.62 NATO spec ammo. It may shoot well in one gun and very poorly in another. You also have to consider this was during the break in period. Did you shoot/clean one round at a time like many recommend?

You might try the WWB again in a while to see if it was break in related or truly ammo related. I have read that NATO spec ammo intended for MG use has a designed in dispersion. One does not want match accuracy from an area weapon, you want a "cone of fire".

I venture to say that if you were to pull down the NATO ammo you would see a relatively high variance in powder charges and/or bullet weights.

I used my reloads after we broke the 100 rd. mark, and yes it was a looong day on my range. I followed DPMS' procedure on both mine and my son's rifle, which was to clean after every round for the first 25 and then after every 10th rd. up to 100. I believe you are correct regarding the NATO MG ammo, I heard that somewhere before, but WWB doesn't specify "NATO" on the box, just 7.62. According to DPMS the barrel isn't really broken in until at least 200 rds. have been fired, and I noticed his gun took a lot longer to wear off the finish they apply all over the bolt and interior surfaces. I think their quality control is suffering from the volume of orders they are trying to satisfy, because my gun had very few FTF and FTE during thebreak-in period, whereas his gun failed to eject every few rounds up to about 50 rds, and then it would occur sporadically past the 100 rd. mark. I bought some Federal 150 gr. SP ammo for less than he paid for the WWB FMJ's and they proved much more accurate.

fragout 04-16-2009 12:46 PM

Do you see any markings on the box itself that reads " Q3130" on it?

What is the twist rate of both rifle bbls? ( 1-12, 1-10, ..?)

Are both bbls chrome lined, SS,......other?

Did both rifles ship with any sort of " factory packing grease", and if so..... was it removed/replaced with decent/factory recommended lube?


What is the headspace set at, and are both rifles relatively the same? ( Possible headspace tags when rifles were shipped from factory?

A little off topic, but what does DPMS say about re-loaded ammunition through their rifles?

I have more questions than answers for you at this time, but once answered, this will most likely narrow down some variables.

RL357Mag 04-16-2009 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fragout (Post 95306)
Do you see any markings on the box itself that reads " Q3130" on it?

What is the twist rate of both rifle bbls? ( 1-12, 1-10, ..?)

Are both bbls chrome lined, SS,......other?

Did both rifles ship with any sort of " factory packing grease", and if so..... was it removed/replaced with decent/factory recommended lube?


What is the headspace set at, and are both rifles relatively the same? ( Possible headspace tags when rifles were shipped from factory?

A little off topic, but what does DPMS say about re-loaded ammunition through their rifles?

I have more questions than answers for you at this time, but once answered, this will most likely narrow down some variables.

Frag - the boxes do have "Q3130" code on the bottom right end panel. What does this signify?

Both rifles are identicaland have 18" chrome moly steel .936" bull barrels with 1:10 twists, which is good for stabilization of everything from 125gr. through the 180 gr. bullet range. I've had great success with 125gr HP , 150gr, 165 gr. and 168 gr. Sierra and Berger Match bullets. I would like to think DPMS quality control is such that there is no significant variation in headspace between two identical rifles of the same model. I managed to make a three shot group with my reloads with my son's rifle that were all touching, so I doubt the inaccuracy I experienced was due to the gun. As far as reloads, DPMS has the same policy as all manufacturers - they void your warranty. Since I have been shooting for 34 years and reloading for 20, manufacturer restrictions mean nothing to me - I strive for accuracy and will NEVER pay $30 a box to achieve it. I'm not an "ocassional" shooter, so buying factory ammo is strictly out of the question...and has been for many years.

fragout 04-17-2009 01:22 AM

Q3130 is Winchester's " M80 BALL NATO" offering.( Look for the NATO circled cross at the base of the brass near the primer for precise confirmation that it is military brass). You should also find the letters " WCC" in the same area signifying " Winchester Centerfire Cartridge.
They also have another white box offering that differs, but I havent played with this load, so cant confirm.... however... I have read that the difference is the brass itself. Apparently the military/NATO brass is a tad thicker than commercial brass, which effects re-loading it, and since you re-load this might come into play if you use the once fired Q3130 brass, as opposed to commercial brass. I do not re-load at this time, but am in the middle of researching it, and this is something that I came across. You most likely already know this and then some, but I figured I would sound off just in case.:)........Worth lookin into I should think.
My favorite flavor for launching 7.62x51mm down range is the M14/M1A, so I can tell you my firsthand experiences with Q3130 through this platform.
I specifically use this ammunition for breaking in new M14 bbl's. Very clean burning IMO, with decent consistency for it's intended purpose. I shoot quite a bit of this, and have good results so far. 1-12, 1-11, and 1-10 twist bbls all seem to like it.
It is not match ammunition however, and most likely wont touch the accurate consistency of a good home rolled load.

Dont have much end user time with any AR's chambered for 7.62x51mm however.

Hope that some of this helps

RL357Mag 04-17-2009 01:31 PM

Thanks Frag - I had no idea the WWB was military ammo. I hope when I finally get to reload this brass I don't find out that the primers are crimped. I do know from reloading that military brass IS thicker, and the suggested max load of powder in a commercial case will be a compressed load in the military brass. My only experience with Military Ball ammo has been with LC (Lake City Arsenal) and FA (Frankfort Arsenal) , never Winchester. Generally speaking however, max loads do not offer the best accuracy. I also remember hearing that some loads can bend the op rods of Garands and M14's?

fragout 04-23-2009 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RL357Mag (Post 95733)
Thanks Frag - I had no idea the WWB was military ammo. I hope when I finally get to reload this brass I don't find out that the primers are crimped. I do know from reloading that military brass IS thicker, and the suggested max load of powder in a commercial case will be a compressed load in the military brass. My only experience with Military Ball ammo has been with LC (Lake City Arsenal) and FA (Frankfort Arsenal) , never Winchester. Generally speaking however, max loads do not offer the best accuracy. I also remember hearing that some loads can bend the op rods of Garands and M14's?

I'm pretty sure that you will find the Q3130 brass to be of the same dimensions as Lake City military brass, to include crimped primers.
I stay away from "hot loads", through my M14/M1A rifles because thier op-rods are expensive to replace if one gets bent. Closing the spindle valve will prevent this, but also turns said rifle into a straight pull bolt action. (No fun in that);)

RL357Mag 04-23-2009 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fragout (Post 98205)
I'm pretty sure that you will find the Q3130 brass to be of the same dimensions as Lake City military brass, to include crimped primers.
I stay away from "hot loads", through my M14/M1A rifles because thier op-rods are expensive to replace if one gets bent. Closing the spindle valve will prevent this, but also turns said rifle into a straight pull bolt action. (No fun in that);)

I hope the primers aren't crimped - that's a PITA to work with (manual decapping). I broke a decapping pin on my .223 die trying to decap PPU brass. I've been waiting 6 weeks for another die since Lee doesn't sell the pins seperately unless you send them the die, then they'll replace it for free, which I should have done 6 weeks ago!


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