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Old 12-08-2013, 03:04 PM   #11
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Using a round driven into the lands will ensure you kaboom your gun at some point. Sweeney is an idiot. I dont often recomend burning a book but that is a good candidate.

Three ways to get a real measurement of your max oal. One chamber gage, hornady locknload gage is good for that. Two chamber casting then measuring the cast. Three book values for coal (my preferred method as the other two also require a bullet comparator).

The issue with the first two is you need some way to measure bullet ogive since the tip of the bullet is as important as where the outside edge of the ogive is. Bullet makers provide that info in the form of max cartridge overall length.

If you look in a load manual you will often see different numbers for the same weight bullets of different types. This is because different ogive lengths need different seating depths and charge weights so you dont drift into over pressure.

Using a overlong case to smash into a chamber is stupid. The method sweeney describes is so stupid it illustrates a complete lack of understanding of handloading. The 40sw and 10mm both head space off the case mouth so rammining a 10mm case into a 40sw chamber will give false data and not even work as the 10mm is longer than a 40sw chamber by design. This is to prevent you from doing what sweeney says is smart.

Burn that book the man is an idiot

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Old 12-08-2013, 03:39 PM   #12
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Jon,
Although I cant pretend to understand your level of disdain for Mr. Sweeney, it is only because I do not know enough yet to gauge his ignorance on not, but believe me I have encountered many a person who puts themselves out there as an expert who in fact an idiot. Have you looked at his book, just curious.
Tell me if I am wrong. A chamber gauge is for testing external diameter only? I have looked to purchase one for 40 but everyone seems to be out of stock at the moment. I have seen bullet comparators, I thought they were for rifle rounds not pistol? how does a comparator differ than just using a set of calipers to measure OAL?
BTW, If I gave the impression that Sweeney was saying to put a 10mm round in a 40 that is not what I was trying to relay, it was to load a 40 round to an almost 10 length then chamber it, not that takes away from his ignorance or adds to his intelligence.
Don't mean to belabor the post but one last question. ( if you don't ask you wont learn, right) If the practice I tried to describe is used in rifle rounds why not pistol? I have taken that 40 is a bit of a caliber all unto its own from how it was derived, are you saying that this practice is foolish with any handgun caliber or just 40 s&w?
I like your quote, I might just steal it for use somewhere else, Ill give you credit though....

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Old 12-08-2013, 04:02 PM   #13
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most semi-auto pistols headspace of the case mouth, not the bullet. most revolvers headspace off the rim, with the cylinder being the factor for OAL.

and FYI, JonM is a pretty knowledgeable reloader and as a reloader myself, i have defered to his wisdom and knowledge several times when i was in doubt on something.

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Old 12-08-2013, 05:13 PM   #14
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There is no way I would try to head space off a bullet in anything. That is just asking for an emergency room trip. That is why I mentioned about the possibility of jumping crimp in a mag and sticking a bullet in the rifling. Jon is right.

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Old 12-08-2013, 05:16 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by volunteer0925 View Post
Jon,
Although I cant pretend to understand your level of disdain for Mr. Sweeney, it is only because I do not know enough yet to gauge his ignorance on not, but believe me I have encountered many a person who puts themselves out there as an expert who in fact an idiot. Have you looked at his book, just curious.
Tell me if I am wrong. A chamber gauge is for testing external diameter only? I have looked to purchase one for 40 but everyone seems to be out of stock at the moment. I have seen bullet comparators, I thought they were for rifle rounds not pistol? how does a comparator differ than just using a set of calipers to measure OAL?
BTW, If I gave the impression that Sweeney was saying to put a 10mm round in a 40 that is not what I was trying to relay, it was to load a 40 round to an almost 10 length then chamber it, not that takes away from his ignorance or adds to his intelligence.
Don't mean to belabor the post but one last question. ( if you don't ask you wont learn, right) If the practice I tried to describe is used in rifle rounds why not pistol? I have taken that 40 is a bit of a caliber all unto its own from how it was derived, are you saying that this practice is foolish with any handgun caliber or just 40 s&w?
I like your quote, I might just steal it for use somewhere else, Ill give you credit though....
anyone that publishes an unsafe practice is not worth reading as how can you believe that he is correct in anything else??

no i typically dont buy books by "experts" i go by what the folks that make loading manuals manufacture bullets and powder and loading gear have to say. im just trying to impress upon you the dangers your facing as a new loader by following bad advice. get a good load manual some of my favorites are from hornady speer nosler and sierra. all the info you will ever need to make very accurate ammunition is in those books.

when you force a bullet into the lands to measure chamber depth you are using more force than the metal can withstand so it gives a false reading. this is true with handguns rifles or cannons. so your reading that you get is going to be deeper than what is actually there in the firearm.

oal is not really that important to accuracy in a handgun. getting too close tot he lands is a bad thing in a handgun because the bullets have such a small bearing surface there isnt a lot for the case to grab to. so when you start seating long to get to the lands you start having issues with bullets pulling under recoil or on chambering leading to severe overpressure as the loose bullet is jammed into the rifling.

handguns just arent like rifles so the techniques that squeeze extreme accuracy from rifles dont really do anything with handguns. what you should focus on for accuracy with handguns is charge weights bullet construction especially with lead hardness as plain lead tends to be more accuracte in a pistol than jacketed and consistancy of the product. actual seat depth isnt important so long as it falls in the afe coal range.
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Last edited by JonM; 12-08-2013 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 12-08-2013, 05:47 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonM View Post
anyone that publishes an unsafe practice is not worth reading as how can you believe that he is correct in anything else??

no i typically dont buy books by "experts" i go by what the folks that make loading manuals manufacture bullets and powder and loading gear have to say. im just trying to impress upon you the dangers your facing as a new loader by following bad advice. get a good load manual some of my favorites are from hornady speer nosler and sierra. all the info you will ever need to make very accurate ammunition is in those books.

when you force a bullet into the lands to measure chamber depth you are using more force than the metal can withstand so it gives a false reading. this is true with handguns rifles or cannons. so your reading that you get is going to be deeper than what is actually there in the firearm.

oal is not really that important to accuracy in a handgun. getting too close tot he lands is a bad thing in a handgun because the bullets have such a small bearing surface there isnt a lot for the case to grab to. so when you start seating long to get to the lands you start having issues with bullets pulling under recoil or on chambering leading to severe overpressure as the loose bullet is jammed into the rifling.

handguns just arent like rifles so the techniques that squeeze extreme accuracy from rifles dont really do anything with handguns. what you should focus on for accuracy with handguns is charge weights bullet construction especially with lead hardness as plain lead tends to be more accuracte in a pistol than jacketed and consistancy of the product. actual seat depth isnt important so long as it falls in the afe coal range.
Thank you Jon and everyone else.

When I played with a dummy round doing what has been talked about here it just didn't sit right in my thinking when I saw that the bullet was only seated less that 3/16" into the brass.

By no imagination am I questioning the legitimacy of any information I am gathering here, just asking questions to answer my own possible misinterpretations of what Ive read so far. Some things make sense and others raise questions in my mind, but then that is one reason why I am here.

Hope to be able to contribute eventually.
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:10 PM   #17
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Duddie Thanks,
I am slowly building up my library and reading different manuals for that exact reason. How does one go about getting the chamber cast and who would you suggest doing that?
Ive done it once came out alright. Heres the link to midwayusa.com ive used them a bunch of times. No worries about site security

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/462291/cerrosafe-chamber-casting-alloy-1-2-lb
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Old 12-09-2013, 04:29 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by JonM View Post
Using a round driven into the lands will ensure you kaboom your gun at some point. Sweeney is an idiot. I dont often recomend burning a book but that is a good candidate.

Three ways to get a real measurement of your max oal. One chamber gage, hornady locknload gage is good for that. Two chamber casting then measuring the cast. Three book values for coal (my preferred method as the other two also require a bullet comparator).

The issue with the first two is you need some way to measure bullet ogive since the tip of the bullet is as important as where the outside edge of the ogive is. Bullet makers provide that info in the form of max cartridge overall length.

If you look in a load manual you will often see different numbers for the same weight bullets of different types. This is because different ogive lengths need different seating depths and charge weights so you dont drift into over pressure.

Using a overlong case to smash into a chamber is stupid. The method sweeney describes is so stupid it illustrates a complete lack of understanding of handloading. The 40sw and 10mm both head space off the case mouth so rammining a 10mm case into a 40sw chamber will give false data and not even work as the 10mm is longer than a 40sw chamber by design. This is to prevent you from doing what sweeney says is smart.

Burn that book the man is an idiot
Your right about that, I use a gage and gage every bullet, if it fits it will work. you will always have variances in OAL, I try to stay around 10,000 under Max oal.
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Old 02-07-2014, 02:08 PM   #19
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Default I tried reloading longer than SAMMI length.

Well after reading several more articles about loading rounds longer than SAMMI spec OAL and its advantages I tried it out myself.

Standard for 40 S&W is 1.125, and then in some manuals it is stated as 1.135" which I had tried, I took it out to 1.165 OAL which is the max length my magazine will accept, although my chamber on my SigP226 goes out to 1.2xx"(can't remember exact length).
I loaded 10 rounds each, progressively loading longer at .010 increments, so 1.135, 1.145 etc.
I wish I had the link at hand now, but it explained in very precise terms how the angle of rounds change as they stack up in a magazine. I could actually fit a round loaded at 1.185 in my mag as long as it was the first round loaded. I tried 1.175 and they fit until I got about 6 rounds in and then jammed up, 1.165 was the optimum length for my mag.

I started out shooting the 1.125 and at 10 yd. had a pattern aprox. 5" low and to the right. As I progressed through the different loads, all at 10 yd. I could see the pattern tightening / centering up, until I reached the round's loaded to 1.165 OAL which patterned out at 9 / 10 in the 1 1/2" DIA. bullseye. Ok, so to many of you this isn't necessarily great marksmanship, but for me not having much time target shooting with a handgun, I was pretty excited! I had loaded 15 rounds at 1.165 and since I had 5 left I ran the target out to 15 yds and hit the same bullseye 4/5 times, made my day!

I was shooting a Sig P226e 40 S&W. rounds loaded were with used WIN brass, Hornady XTP 155 HP ( 500 free for buying a Hornady LNL press) 6.3 grains of SR 7625, CCI 550 primer. I was using the 7625 powder because it was the only thing available at the time, and the same for the 550 primers instead of CCI 500 primers.

Now I wonder do I leave it alone or try hotter loads at this length?

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Old 02-07-2014, 02:27 PM   #20
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From the info I have gathered recently I understand that factory ammo of given caliber is loaded to SAMMI lengths to safely fit 99% of all handguns / rifles, what it doesn't mean is that it is necessarily the proper length for "your" particular firearm, but again it may be, investigation is required.

Loading the round with the bullet right up to the lands of your rifling is not a good thing, rifle or handgun.

The example given was a car trying to drive up a curb with the tire right on the curb. It takes a considerably longer and harder push to get it to go up as compared to back off and taking a running start at it, so goes with loading a round too close to the rifling too much pressure can be built up.
The general consensus also is that loading the bullet out further, which leaves more space inside the cartridge at a given powder weight does not create a situation of a hotter load because of having more time and space to ignite the powder,(which I have read a few times), and as I experienced less recoil and muzzle flip I tend to believe the former.

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