question about bullet dia. - Page 2
You are Unregistered, please register to use all of the features of FirearmsTalk.com!    


Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Gear & Accessories > Ammunition & Reloading >

question about bullet dia.


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-19-2009, 06:53 PM   #11
Moderator
FTF_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
robocop10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Austin,Texas, by God!!
Posts: 10,834
Liked 3451 Times on 1776 Posts
Likes Given: 372

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spittinfire View Post
Robo, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the 30-30 start out as 30WCF and when Marlin built a rifle of the same caliber they didn't want to put Winchester's name on their rifles so they called it a 30-30 and over time the two names became interchangable.
I believe that is indeed correct. Winchester used proprietary names on their cartridges. Others would not give free advertising to Winchester (perhaps there was some copyright issues also) so they would rename the cartridge for their purposes.

You still see this in cartridges like the .38 S&W Special and .44 S&W Special (the actual names) have been used so extensively with out the S&W part of their names many folks forget the real name.

The venerable .44 Remington Magnum has become simply the .44 mag. Remington ammo is still head stamped 44 Rem Mag, but everyone else drops the "Rem" from the name.

Partnerships in new cartridge/gun design have linked arms and ammo makers in several endeavors. When a gun maker is also an ammo maker, it leads to names that others would rather not advertise. S&W, Remington and Winchester each make (or used to make) both guns and ammo. S&W sold there ammo line to Federal, Winchester is pretty much out of the gun business and Remington still makes both but are no longer in the handgun business.


__________________
In life, strive to take the high road....It offers a better field of fire.
"Robo is right" Fuzzball
robocop10mm is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2009, 06:56 PM   #12
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
spittinfire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Maiden,NC
Posts: 9,663
Liked 85 Times on 55 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

How long do you think it will take to change 300 Win Mag? I get the 327 Federal mag doesn't get anyone upset. Has anyone besides Ruger and Taurus touched that one?


__________________
If the pain is lacking so is the discipline...

"the only 911 call I need is chambering a round" - Mr. Muller, MO car dealer
spittinfire is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2009, 08:01 PM   #13
Moderator
FTF_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
robocop10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Austin,Texas, by God!!
Posts: 10,834
Liked 3451 Times on 1776 Posts
Likes Given: 372

Default

Since Winchester no longer makes rifles, I doubt Remington will have much of an issue labeling a gun with "Win. Mag".
__________________
In life, strive to take the high road....It offers a better field of fire.
"Robo is right" Fuzzball
robocop10mm is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2009, 02:31 AM   #14
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
supergus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 548
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robocop10mm View Post
Naming cartridges is a crazy business. Normally they are named by the bore diameter, but you can go by the diameter across the lands or across the grooves. A .223 is normally .223 across the lands but .224 across the groves. A .222 and .222 Mag are the same as the .223. A .270 is actually .277 across the lands. A .38 Special is .358 across the lands as is a .357 Mag (groove diameter). A .480 Ruger is .475. A .44 mag is .429 but a .41 mag is .410 and a 40 S&W is a true 40 caliber using .401 bullets (for a proper seal).

Some of this is historical. The .38 Special was developed from the .38 Long Colt which was developed from the .38 Short Colt which was developed for converted cap and ball .36 caliber revolvers whch had a bore diameter of .38.
.38 sounds bigger than .36 so it is more powerful and marketable. Originally the .38 Short Colt had a heeled bullet like the .22 Long Rifle and was 38 caliber. When the design was updated/improved so the bullet sat inside the case, the bullet had to shrink and the barrels were made in an appropriate diameter for this new bullet (.357-.358). So the 38 special started off life as a true 38 but evolved into a .357 special.

The numerical name tends to carry forward when a cartridge is modernized. What really causes confusion is when some maker decides to be honest and call something by a realistic name like the .357 Magnum. It is difficult for people to grasp that a "huge" .38 caliber bullet can be safely fired through a tiny .357 barrel.

It can get even more confusing when you consider the older black powder cartridges. .25-20 was a .25 caliber bullet propelled by 20 grains of black powder. .32-20 was a .312 diameter bullet propelled by 20 grains of black powder. The .44-40 was a .427 bullet and 40 grains of powder, but the 38-40 was a 40 caliber bullet and 38 grains of powder (bass ackwards naming). I guess 40-38 did not sound right. The 45-70 was actually called the 45-70-500, diamter-powder charge-bullet weight in grains. The 30-30 was never loaded with black powder as it was developed as one of the first smokeless powder cartridges in the US but people were used to that kind of name so it stuck. On a side note, the 30-30 is also known as the 30WCF or Winchester Center Fire. The 30-40 Krag also was developed as a smokeless powder cartridge and was never loaded with black powder. It is also known as the .30 US Government.

Then you get to the .30-06. It was a 30 caliber (.308 diameter) rifle cartridge adopted in 1906. It is an improvement of an earlier cartridge called the .30-03.

The Europeans use a very different method of naming cartridges that in some respects is more clear, once you understand their thought process. The 9mm Luger or Parabellum (for war) is also called the 9 X 19 or 9mm diameter with a 19mm case length. The .380 ACP is known as the 9 X 17. The 7mm Mauser is the 7 X 57 and the 8mm Mauser is the 8 X 57 or sometimes the 7.92 X 57 (don't get me started on the whole .318/.323 diameter, J JS issue). The popularity of break open multi barrel rifles and shotgun/rifle combination guns in Europe causes the need for a rimmed cartridge for these actions. So the Europeans add the letter "R" after the cartridge name to indicate it is rimmed hence the designations 7 X 57R, 8 X 57R, 7.62 X 54R etc.

Now that I have muddied up the waters, you will realize there is much to learn. That is part of the fun of our sport. There is always more to learn.
Thanks! ( I think......)
__________________
In God We Trust. (Everyone else, hands where I can see 'em)

If Obama is the answer, then the question must have been stupid.
supergus is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
a question regaring bullet proof vests lowead Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection 3 07-06-2009 03:28 AM
new bullet iceboxx1953 General Rifle Discussion 3 03-01-2009 03:56 AM
Part 4, the bullet robocop10mm Ammunition & Reloading 0 01-21-2009 04:53 PM
Cast bullet in .223 robocop10mm Ammunition & Reloading 3 11-13-2008 02:35 PM
Where is the Bullet? GrannySmithy Glock Forum 4 05-20-2008 01:20 AM



Newest Threads