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Old 12-21-2013, 08:36 PM   #21
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For a plinker and someone who is dumping the powder, you are very anal about case length. I suppose "professor" explains that. Get away from the computer and do some shooting and reloading. And take some measurements.
Being new on this forum, I can't say that it's easy to get my question answered. Perhaps I'm being "anal", then again I may be trying to learn. I'm new at this. I DON'T have much knowledge.....that's why I am asking. This thread is 2 pages now, and while everyone knows more about this subject (I assume so, anyway) I haven't had my question answered.

I have a Hornady progressive press. All the manuals, Youtube videos, etc seem to suggest that cases can be loaded progressively. With the exception of the Auto-trim (a Dillon product I don't have), there seems to be no way to trim efficiently during the process. I asked about the case "growth" during re-sizing....I got an answer telling me it depends on powder and individual combustion chamber. That doesn't answer my question now, does it? I asked again, this time politely pointing out that the "lengthening" I was concerned with was that which happens during re-sizing (NOT firing). Now, apparently I am being "anal" ? Yet, still no answer to my freaking question. I can laugh about it with the best of them.
If through some miracle I received a response saying "Average case growth during re-szing is 2 or 3 thousands." then I feel I could load progressively and efficiently by trimming first, and loading progressively by spot checking case length occasionally during the process. If by some other miracle I receive a response saying "Cases easily grow 8 to 10 thousandths during re-sizing" I then know that I must re-size, then trim, then finish loading and can not include re-sizing as part of the progressive operation unless I have a Dillon with an auto-trim. Which tells me that the only press that is progressive is the Dillon. It also tells me that all the Sinclair reloading videos, my Hornady maniual and Hornady video, and that many re-loading manuals are wrong because they don't show the operation "stopped" after re-sizing to trim cases.
I'm an FNG (some of you know what this means).....I came to this forum for help from like-minded people with more experience. But that doesn't make me an idiot. I asked an intelligent question. I've gotten lots of info.....just no answer to my question about how much a case grows during re-sizing. Perhaps no one knows....


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Old 12-22-2013, 03:39 AM   #22
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You are not being an A&& hole. For anyone to tell a concerned student of hand-loading to ignore OAL and just go shooting is very misguided. Most modern ammo is crimped for feeding in popular semi-auto rifles. Once fired brass needs trimming to remove this crimp for proper chamber fit. The improper OAL can lead to dangerously high chamber pressures.
Keep doing your study regarding safe hand-loading.



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Old 12-22-2013, 04:06 AM   #23
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Being new on this forum, I can't say that it's easy to get my question answered. Perhaps I'm being "anal", then again I may be trying to learn. I'm new at this. I DON'T have much knowledge.....that's why I am asking. This thread is 2 pages now, and while everyone knows more about this subject (I assume so, anyway) I haven't had my question answered.

I have a Hornady progressive press. All the manuals, Youtube videos, etc seem to suggest that cases can be loaded progressively. With the exception of the Auto-trim (a Dillon product I don't have), there seems to be no way to trim efficiently during the process. I asked about the case "growth" during re-sizing....I got an answer telling me it depends on powder and individual combustion chamber. That doesn't answer my question now, does it? I asked again, this time politely pointing out that the "lengthening" I was concerned with was that which happens during re-sizing (NOT firing). Now, apparently I am being "anal" ? Yet, still no answer to my freaking question. I can laugh about it with the best of them.
If through some miracle I received a response saying "Average case growth during re-szing is 2 or 3 thousands." then I feel I could load progressively and efficiently by trimming first, and loading progressively by spot checking case length occasionally during the process. If by some other miracle I receive a response saying "Cases easily grow 8 to 10 thousandths during re-sizing" I then know that I must re-size, then trim, then finish loading and can not include re-sizing as part of the progressive operation unless I have a Dillon with an auto-trim. Which tells me that the only press that is progressive is the Dillon. It also tells me that all the Sinclair reloading videos, my Hornady maniual and Hornady video, and that many re-loading manuals are wrong because they don't show the operation "stopped" after re-sizing to trim cases.
I'm an FNG (some of you know what this means).....I came to this forum for help from like-minded people with more experience. But that doesn't make me an idiot. I asked an intelligent question. I've gotten lots of info.....just no answer to my question about how much a case grows during re-sizing. Perhaps no one knows....

i did answer your question. it depends. not all cases loads and rifles are the same even in the same lot # of cases and lot#'s of factory ammo or the same handloads even fired out of the same gun. what i outlined in my previous reply was how it happens and why this occurs.

every case will not grow in length in a predictable way so there is no way to answer your question with an emprical answer. there is no size a case and it grows X in length answer everytime for every sample of case. its just a fact of reloading that you have to do prep work BEFORE you can progressivley reload bottleneck cartridges. if you skip or try to shortcut the basic step of sizing then measuring and trimming at somepoint you run a very real risk of blowing your gun up in this fashion:


thats overpressure. its why we are harping on safety with loading. this individual was lucky he was injured but many folks are when they ignore safety in loading procedures.

when i load for bottleneck cartridges i make a sizing decapping run then sort the brass weeding out the ones i need to trim. i either trim them at that point or segrate them for later trimming. once they are trimmed or you have enough cases taht do not need trimming as the length falls between min and max, you can AT that point progressively load as you would a straight wall pistol case.

if you cannot accept this concept you might reconsider the hobby as what your wanting to do is simply not a good idea.
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Old 12-22-2013, 04:47 AM   #24
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Professor,

We understand your question and the complications bottle neck cartridges provide. The short answer is... No, you cannot assume a similar amount of lengthening when re-sizing. This is because of the following factors:
1. Age of brass
2. Brand of brass
3. Type of rifle(fully supported bolt, partially supported semi)
4. Load differences

There are likely more reasons for the brass to stretch more/less.

The only way you MIGHT get around depriming, sizing and trimming before you progressively reload is by using the RCBS X-Die. They are reported to not stretch the brass as much. They do require trimming .020 under max initially. Even so, they still eventually need to be trimmed again(after 4-5 loadings). I personally have no experience with these. Good luck and be safe.

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Old 12-22-2013, 10:11 PM   #25
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I think the only way you are going to get something close to the answer you are looking for would be to do some testing.

Take a few cases that you have trimmed to the same length, 1.750.
Set up your press to resize on station 1, and nothing else.
Run the brass through the press. It will go the whole lap, but the only thing that will be done is resize.
Check your new length. This will give you an idea of what you can expect for that day. Keep in mind, this will change from rifle to rifle, from load to load, from head stamp to head stamp, and with the number of times that the brass has been reloaded. This start to be a PITA. I have found that I like to just run all of my necked brass though my hornady LNL twice. The first is to deprime and resize. Then after trimming, annealing, and recleaning the brass, I put it back in the press, this time without the resizing die, but with the rest of the dies, powder, and primers.

The only difference I can see that you may want to try is for your universal decapping die. I would guess that you could put it in station 1 and the resizing die in station 2.

Hope this help.

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Old 12-23-2013, 01:50 AM   #26
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Jebsca...it helps a LOT. While all responses were helpful, some guys still don't "get" my question (that it's about length during RE-SIZING and NOT FIRING). You, Sir, get it.
I had been thinking about this all day. I came up with pretty much the same idea. Now, you have validated and confirmed it for me. The only way to get an answer is to (as you say) run some thru the re-sizing die only and then check the length. Right now all my brass has been tumbled, de-primed, flash hole cleaned, primer pocket reamed, trimmed to length, and deburred (in that order). I plan to resize 25 to 30 cases (without any other operation) and then check length. Perhaps I may learn something.
Thank you (and one or two other posters, also) for your understanding that I am new and came here to learn. Even the most experienced "expert" started out as a newbie. In spite of my lack of experience, I do beleive I asked intelligent questions and well....I thought my questions were perhaps more intelligent than one or two of the answers I received. I am still getting answers about "rifle chamber" and "powder charge" factors when it' is question of what happens during re-sizing.
.
ive removed a few posts the above quote is one such removed post but it does need an answer. ive removed the snarky portions that are referring to other deleted posts as the main point does need to be answered for the sake of safety and a proper understanding achieved of the loading firing resizing proccess.

if you take a piece of unfired new brass and run it through a sizing die nothing will happen as pretty much all new brass comes sized to standard saami spec. however it does need to be run through the sizer so the case mouth can be formed to round by the expander ball.

now load and fire the brass once and measure before and after you get a value for the length of case stretch.

measure the now once fired brass then resize and you will get second value dissimilar to the previous data set. similar brass that was also measured and fired will give yet another different value.

repeat and the variences in data sets for given brass will vary even more.

the reason this happens is the variable of case annealing amount of actual brass in the case as in the mass of the case will be different in brand new production brass from piece to piece. this makes it impossible to predict the growth of any individual case.

now there are many more variables than that that also affect case stretch in resizing operation. even the ammount of lube used can affect case stretch.

during firing the case doesnt stretch it expands to fit the chamber tightly sealing the chamber then as pressure drops the brass releases a little allowing the bolt to extract the case. how much the case expands (chamber size, pressure, case construction etc) then using the sizing die (the step that actually stretches the case) all the previous conditions determine case stretch.

yes we understand what your asking but i think your misunderstanding how cartridges and firearms interact which is leading you to assume there is a way to predict case stretch during the sizing operation.
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Old 12-23-2013, 10:04 AM   #27
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Thanks for your response, and I do believe I got the help I needed. Regarding the removal of certain posts (labeled as "snarky"): it is VERY interesting to note that these so-called "snarky" posts were allowed to stand (and Jon, you have participated in this thread so you had known of these posts all along).
THEN when I respond (quite successfully, I think) to these "snarky" posts, all of a sudden the moderator THEN steps in to the rescue. Hey, maybe this post will be removed also. What ever happened to freedom of speech? Mine AND thiers?

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Old 12-23-2013, 11:43 AM   #28
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Thanks for your response, and I do believe I got the help I needed. Regarding the removal of certain posts (labeled as "snarky"): it is VERY interesting to note that these so-called "snarky" posts were allowed to stand (and Jon, you have participated in this thread so you had known of these posts all along).
THEN when I respond (quite successfully, I think) to these "snarky" posts, all of a sudden the moderator THEN steps in to the rescue. Hey, maybe this post will be removed also. What ever happened to freedom of speech? Mine AND thiers?
Since your new to the forum, there is no freedom of speech here in regards to attacking other members. The reason those posts were removed is it escalates that behaviour to a point, if left undealt with, that the forum will be filled with such stuff and eventually drives everyone else off and the forum as a whole dies out. Who wants to read a bunch of jerry springer type crap??

I would be happy to discuss freedom of speech and what it really means in the politics and controversy subsection but that is not a topic open for general forums.

Anyway you seem to have what you feel you want and hopefully you end up following safe loading practices as we hate seeing anyone end up injured due to trying to shortcut 150 years of proven safety procedures... I am closing this thread to further discussion since anything else is just going to boil down to non-productive conversation.

I wish you luck in your endeavors
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Old 12-23-2013, 03:46 PM   #29
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"Professor", I will second what Jon posted. Freedom of Speech does not exist in a private arena. If you were, in fact, a "Professor" you would be learned enough to understand that. It is the Moderator's responsibility to keep things civil and factual. We have seen the signs of impending mayhem and act accordingly.

You need to remember one of the cardinal rules here, have a thick skin. If you engage in behavior (reloading) that many (if not most) here consider potentially dangerous, ill informed, or uneducated you should expect to be "called out" on it.
As long as the "calling out" does not get too acidic, it should be allowed to stand (to a point).



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