Need help with common ammo types


Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Gear & Accessories > Ammunition & Reloading > Need help with common ammo types

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-25-2014, 07:01 PM   #1
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 7
Liked 2 Times on 1 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default Need help with common ammo types

Hello fellow weapon lovers!

We are currently developing a first person shooting game, and I need
your advice in order to make the ammo related mechanics in the game
plausible, since I am at the end of my knowledge, and theres just too
much information for me to filter out.

So basically I want to introduce a couple of ammo types that can
be chosen from with any normal assault rifle / LMG ( and 5.56 SMGs)

The thing is that I have a clear function they have to fulfill, and I search the
right bullet that fits best at that given description

Also I am not sure which are the commonly used AR,Carbine,LMG - types, so far Ive got those, but do i miss an important one ?

5.56×45mm NATO
7.62×51mm NATO
7.62×39mm M43/67


So I would require 3 variants of each of those 3

- Standard FMJ (correct?)

- Armor piercing I have no clue (7.62 pierce more than 5.56 by default however)

- Hollow point ? (Causes a more dangerous wound, slowing
the target over a long time, preventing health regeneration, have less armor penetration and less range due to slower travel speed)

- Hollow point variant ? (Supposed to cause extra impact force, halting the target for 0.5s, have less armor penetration and less range due to slower travel speed)



Does this make more or less sense ? Are there any special rounds that could fit in those roles ? It does not matter if they are only used very rarely.

I mainly need names / for each round type.
Armor piercing are those tungsten/Wolfram rounds ?
Also I read about sabot being used in small arms aswell ? Where would they fit ?
Is there anything really special you know about that would be interesting to have ? (I know about tracers and subsonic)

I'd be really grateful for your time.



__________________
Sunofabeach is offline  
 
Reply With Quote

Join FirearmsTalk.com Today - It's Free!

Are you a firearms enthusiast? Then we hope you will join the community. You will gain access to post, create threads, private message, upload images, join groups and more.

Firearms Talk is owned and operated by fellow firearms enthusiasts. We strive to offer a non-commercial community to learn and share information.

Join FirearmsTalk.com Today! - Click Here


Old 02-25-2014, 07:35 PM   #2
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
locutus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,942
Liked 6343 Times on 3547 Posts
Likes Given: 5922

Default

5.56X45 M855 Ball. Steel core penetrator, standard issue for U.s. forces.
5.56X45 M193 Ball 55 grain FMJ Secondary standard

Some JSOC units use a 77 Gr. sniper round, not sure of designation.

7.51X51 M80 Ball standard issue for General Purpose machine guns.
7.62X51 sniper rounds used by snipers.

7.62X39 not used by NATO forces. Common in third third world, and secondary standard for Russian force for rifle and RPK LMG.
7.62X54R Russian and client state GPMG round
5.54X39 7N6 steel penetrater core, standard issue Russian rifle round for AK-74 and RPK-74 LMG.

5.8X?? new Chinese round. Allegedly similar to 5.45X39 Russian.

There are several others that I haven't kept up with. There is an AP round in 7.62X51 and 5.45X39 but I don't know their designations.



__________________
“We sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would harm us.”
Winston Churchill



War is the continuation of politics by other means.
Carl von Clausewitz

Last edited by locutus; 02-25-2014 at 07:42 PM.
locutus is offline  
Sunofabeach Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2014, 07:44 PM   #3
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Northeast San Antonio, TX
Posts: 1,670
Liked 779 Times on 519 Posts
Likes Given: 49

Default

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/ammunition-types-and-char.shtml for 5.56

7.62x51 nato
M80 – Ball
M61 – Armor Piercing
M62 – Tracer
M63 – Dummy
M82 – Blank

7.62x39 is basically just ball, tracer, steel core armor piercing, and tracer.

I would add the ak-74 in 5.45 as its a more modern cartridge adopted by a lot of countries too
__________________

this message was sent using my Barrett 50 straight to your brain.

seancslaughter is offline  
Sunofabeach Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2014, 07:46 PM   #4
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Northeast San Antonio, TX
Posts: 1,670
Liked 779 Times on 519 Posts
Likes Given: 49

Default

what timeline is this game set in? Modern? Future? Near future? Are you sticking with weapons that are authentic to forces and time periods or is there room for other items?

__________________

this message was sent using my Barrett 50 straight to your brain.

seancslaughter is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2014, 08:43 PM   #5
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 7
Liked 2 Times on 1 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Ah thanks for the answers so far!

The game will use weapons from after the cold war era on, it does not have a specific setting and things are not bound to specific forces / times / locations. It acts more of an weapon and location portfolio, gathering the most interesting ideally.

@Locotus & seancslaughter, wow thanks, those are a lot. I was hoping I could generalize more and go with less different ones.

I still am very confused about the special versions. Steel penetrator round ?
M80 Ball is the standard issue as far as I understand
Steel core are the armor piercing ones ?

What about the sabot tungsten rounds , are they even better armor piercing rounds that are not effective vs humans anymore ?


And are my assumptions correct about the reduced speed vs stopping power and so on ?

So I read that expanding bullets would fit on my descriptions, I read there are hollow and soft point bullets

Soft point spread out so the bullet does not penetrate to reduce casualities and add stopping power and hollow point causes shrapnel inside the body, leading to nasty wounds, is that correct ?
That would fit perfectly on my mechanics if that is right. I still cannot follow with the armor piercing ones, whats the thought behind ?

Sorry those are many questions

__________________

Last edited by Sunofabeach; 02-25-2014 at 08:52 PM.
Sunofabeach is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2014, 08:53 PM   #6
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Northeast San Antonio, TX
Posts: 1,670
Liked 779 Times on 519 Posts
Likes Given: 49

Default

Steel penetrator rounds basically have a steel core surrounded by lead and copper it has the capability to punch through some body armors. Now when you get to the heavier 7.62 NATO round they have ap rounds designed to go through a set amount of armored steel. Hollow point rounds are not used by the military with exceptions made for military police, snipers, and some special forces units. Hollow points generally create larger wound cavities and more trauma to vital organs. Ball ammo or fmj ammo creates smaller wounds (this is what most militaries carry. Tracers have a phosphorous tip that can be used as a signal or to let you know your getting to the end of your mag.


Sent from my iPhone using Firearms Talk

__________________

this message was sent using my Barrett 50 straight to your brain.

seancslaughter is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2014, 08:54 PM   #7
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Northeast San Antonio, TX
Posts: 1,670
Liked 779 Times on 519 Posts
Likes Given: 49

Default

I have never seen a sabot tungsten round for small arms that is more or less a tank round designed to punch a hole in another tank


Sent from my iPhone using Firearms Talk

__________________

this message was sent using my Barrett 50 straight to your brain.

seancslaughter is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2014, 09:35 PM   #8
Moderator
FTF_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
JonM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Rochester WI,Rochester WI
Posts: 17,923
Liked 5923 Times on 3093 Posts
Likes Given: 418

Default

Somethings that drive me simly nuts in video games are the myths about weapons and ammunition that are perpetuated.

Suppressor do not reduce the speed, accuracy, or effectiveness of a bullet. Suppressors act like a flash hider and a muzzle brake combined giving more control on follow up shots. Suppressors due to length and weight on the muzzle make firearms slightly more difficult to use fast. Suppressor do change point of impact meaning, with the weapon zeroed without it will change the point of zero so you have to reset the sights between suppressed and unsuppressed mode.

Hollow points do not reduce speed of a round in fact its quite the opposite. Hollow points retain speed longer due to more streamlined nature and generally have a much better ballistic co-efficient which is why they are used in sniping and longrange applications.

Hollowpoints in pistols are mainly used to prevent overpenetration in civilian applications. You don't want the bullet spearing through the greenpeace terrorist trying to burn your home to the ground and hitting innocent folks down range. They don't really make rounds "more lethal"

AP rounds in military use are designed for anti vehicle and equipment and to penetrate light concealment or cover. They do not reduce effectiveness on soft targets like enemy soldiers. There is no downside to loading them other than the large cost.

Tracers are very damaging to barrels increasing wear and are typically much less accurate at distance due to the phosphorous pellet buring off and making the bullet unstable. They aren't typically used in a average soldiers load out. They are used for marking targets, illuminating fields of fire so your guys know where the friendly fire is, or signaling other troop elements.

Saboted rounds aren't used in small arms although several militaries use or have used flechette rounds with no success. As said above saboted rounds are normally found in cannon application.

Common rounds used by our military are

45 acp and 9mm they come only in fmj or tracer(extremely limited) hollowpoints are civilian use only

5.56 fmj, tracer, ap. Ap rounds are not typical ap and only are meant for added penetration against very light body armor at very long range. Close up fmj will go through any body armour like its not there.

7.62x51 fmj tracer ap hollowpoint incindiary(vey uncommon usually only found in air to ground application). Hollowpoint is used by our snipers for increased accuracy at range to retain bullet energy for effect on target at extreme range. Ap rounds are meant for anti vehicle application

50bmg. Ap fmj tracer incendiary raufus. This is where it gets reallllly fun. Ap rounds will chop through even medium armored vehicles and all cover, raufus rounds are nasty, they penetrate then explode on the other side of walls like a mini grenade.

__________________

"Gun control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound." — L. Neil Smith

The problem with being stupid is you cannot simply decide to stop doing dumb things...

JonM is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2014, 09:58 PM   #9
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
locutus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,942
Liked 6343 Times on 3547 Posts
Likes Given: 5922

Default

There have been sabot rounds used in 50cal 30 cal and in the past. The so-called SLAP rounds were a standard AP tungsten carbide core bullet in a polymer sabot. A .30 caliber AP in a .50 caliber sabot or a.223 AP in a.30 cal. sabot.

SLAP= Sabotted Light Armor Piercing. The idea was to greatly increase velocity, and therefore penetration.

These work well in 120MM tank gun rounds, but I don't think they were ever widely deployed for machine guns. Another one of those really great ideas that didn't work out so in practice.

__________________
“We sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would harm us.”
Winston Churchill



War is the continuation of politics by other means.
Carl von Clausewitz
locutus is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2014, 10:10 PM   #10
Moderator
FTF_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
c3shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Third bunker on the right,Central Virginia
Posts: 17,077
Liked 9407 Times on 4054 Posts
Likes Given: 1477

Default

There WAS an attempt to develop a 7.62 NATO SLAP- Saboted, Light Armor Piercing- round for the M60 MG. This was a small, VERY hard projectile in a plastic sabot. Great idea. However, MG barrels get VERY hot when used in sustained fire. They found the sabots were starting to melt on the way up the barrel- letting the penetrator turn- and some were coming out of the side of the barrel. Development dropped. Very scarce collector's round.

There are also Duplex rounds, grenade launching blanks, frangible bullets, "pink" tracers etc. Here is the listing of variant 7.62 NATO rounds that have been in US hands- some for testing only.

Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Ball, M59 (United States): 150.5-grain (9.8 g) 7.62×51mm NATO ball cartridge. A further development of the initial T65 cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, High Pressure Test, M60 (United States): 7.62×51mm NATO test cartridge. The cartridge is not for field issue, but is used for proof firing of weapons during manufacture, test, or repair. The cartridge is identified by a stannic-stained (silvered) case.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Armor Piercing, M61 (United States): 150.5-grain (9.8 g) 7.62×51mm NATO armor-piercing round, black cartridge tip.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Tracer, M62 (United States): 142-grain (9.2 g) tracer cartridge, orange cartridge tip.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Dummy, M63 (United States): The cartridge is used for practice in loading 7.62mm weapons for simulated firing to detect flinching of personnel during firing and for inspecting and testing the weapon mechanism. The cartridge is identified by six longitudinal corrugations (flutings) on the cartridge case. There is no primer and no vent hole in the primer pocket.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Grenade, M64 (United States): 7.62×51mm NATO grenade launching blank. The cartridge is identified by a rose-petal (rosette-crimp) closure of the cartridge case mouth and sealed with red lacquer. The cartridge provides pressure upon functioning to project rifle grenade to a desired target when using a grenade projectile adapter and dragon missile launch effect trainer (LET).
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Ball, M80 (United States): 147-grain (9.5 g) 7.62×51mm NATO ball cartridge. The U.S. Army's Ballistic Research Laboratory measured a ballistic coefficient (G7 BC) of 0.200 and form factor (G7 i) of 1.105 for the M80 ball projectile.[11]
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Ball, M80A1 (United States): M80 Lead Free (LF) 7.62×51mm NATO ball cartridge.[12] 114.5-grain (7.4 g) of lead eliminated per M80A1 projectile. To be issued in 2014.[10]
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Blank, M82 (United States): 7.62×51mm NATO cartridge is used in rifles and machine guns equipped with blank firing attachments to simulate firing in training exercises and for saluting purposes. The cartridge is identified by its double tapered (bottle nose) neck and absence of a bullet.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Ball, Silent, XM115 (United States): Little is known of this round, but it was an attempt to quiet the round. Never adopted.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Match, M118 (United States): 173-grain (11.2 g) 7.62×51mm NATO Full Metal Jacket Boat Tail round specifically designed for Match purposes. The round was introduced as the XM118 match in 1963 and was produced at both Frankford Arsenal and Lake City Army Ammunition Plant. It was standardized as M118 match in mid-1965. It used the same bullet as the .30-06 Springfield M72 Match Ball round, match-grade brass cartridges, and used fitted No. 43 primers. Production ceased at Frankford in 1965 but continued at Lake City until the early 1980s. Lake City used dedicated equipment to produce the ammo up until the mid-1970s and during that time the quality of the ammunition was quite good. When they ceased using dedicated machinery the quality of the ammo had a very noticeable decline.[13]
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Ball, Special, M118 (United States): 173-grain (11.2 g) 7.62×51mm NATO Full Metal Jacket Boat Tail round specifically designed for match purposes. Produced by Lake City Army Ammunition Plant. This is an interim match round which utilized standard M80 ball brass cartridges with the 173-grain (11.2 g) Full-Metal Jacketed Ball Boat Tailed (FMJBT) bullet and staked No. 34 or No. 36 primers. During this period in the early to late 1980s the performance of the round declined. Powder, primer, and brass were the same as standard ball rounds; bullets and powder charges varied in weight due to worn machinery and poor quality control. Since it couldn't be called "Match" due to its erratic trajectory, it was renamed "Special Ball". Snipers used to test shoot batches of ammo, find a batch that shot well (or at least consistently), then zeroed their weapon to that batch and tried to procure as much of that ammo as possible.[13]
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Ball, Special, M118LR (United States): 175-grain (11.3 g) 7.62×51mm NATO Match-grade round specifically designed for long-range sniping. It uses a 175-grain (11.3 g) Sierra Match King Hollow Point Boat Tail bullet. Produced at Lake City Army Ammunition Plant. The propellant's noticeable muzzle flash and temperature sensitivity led to the development of the MK 316 MOD 0 for Special Operations use.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Frangible, M160 (United States): 108.5-grain (7.0 g) 7.62×51mm NATO frangible bullet, upon striking a target, disintegrates, leaving a mark at the point of impact.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Dummy, M172 (United States): 7.62×51mm NATO cartridge is inert and is used to test the mechanism and metallic link belts of 7.62mm weapons. The cartridge is identified by a black oxide finish over the entire round and has no primer. There is no vent hole in the primer pocket.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Ball, Overhead Fire, XM178 (United States): 7.62×51mm NATO Overhead Fire Application (OFA) cartridge using a solid, turned, GM bullet. These were developed to supposedly make the OFA cartridges safer since there would be no small pieces of bullet that could separate and fall on the troops. Never adopted.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Tracer, Overhead Fire, XM179 (United States): 7.62×51mm NATO Overhead Fire Application (OFA) cartridge using a solid, turned, GM bullet. These were developed to supposedly make the OFA cartridges safer since there would be no small pieces of bullet that could separate and fall on the troops. XM179/XM180 difference is the amount of trace mixture. Never adopted.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Tracer, Overhead Fire, XM180 (United States): 7.62×51mm NATO Overhead Fire Application (OFA) cartridge using a solid, turned, GM bullet. These were developed to supposedly make the OFA cartridges safer since there would be no small pieces of bullet that could separate and fall on the troops. XM179/XM180 difference is the amount of trace mixture. Never adopted.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Blank, XM192 (United States): 7.62×51mm Short case rose crimped dummy. Never adopted.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Duplex, M198 (United States): 7.62×51mm NATO duplex round with two 84-grain (5.4 g) bullets. The developmental designation was T314E3.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Ball, Low Recoil, XM256 (United States): 7.62×51mm NATO Single 82-grain (5.3 g) bullet from M198 round. Another attempt to control the M14 in full auto mode or for small stature troops. Never adopted.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Tracer, M276 (United States): 7.62×51mm NATO so-called "Dim Tracer" with reduced effect primarily for use with night vision devices, green cartridge tip with pink ring.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Match, M852 (United States): 168-grain (10.9 g) 7.62×51mm NATO Hollow-Point Boat-Tail cartridge, specifically designed for use in National Match competitions. It was dubbed "Mexican Match" because it was based on the International Match loading used at the Pan-Am Games in Mexico. It used standard brass, primer, and propellant, but used a match-grade bullet. It was later approved by U.S. Army JAG in the 1990s for combat use by snipers. It replaced the M118SB as the standard Match round. The bullet was very accurate at around 300 meters (competition match ranges) but suffered at longer ranges.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Saboted Light Armor Penetrator, M948 (United States): 7.62×51mm NATO Saboted Light Armor Penetrator cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Saboted Light Armor Penetrator Tracer, M959 (United States): 7.62×51mm NATO Saboted Light Armor Penetrator cartridge with tracer element.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Ball, Training, M973 (United States): 7.62×51mm NATO SRTA ball training round. Has air brake to reduce the range the bullet will fly[14]
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Tracer, Training, M974 (United States): 7.62×51mm NATO SRTA tracer training round. Has air brake to reduce the range the bullet will fly[14]
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Armor Piercing, M993 (United States): 126.6 grains (8.2 g) 7.62×51mm NATO armor-piercing round, black cartridge tip.
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm Special Ball, Long Range, MK 316 MOD 0 (United States): A 175-grain (11.3 g) round specifically designed for long-range sniping consisting of Sierra MatchKing Hollow Point Boat Tail projectiles, Federal Cartridge Company match cartridge cases and Gold Medal Match primers. The Propellant has been verified as IMR 4064 (per NSN 1305-01-567-6944 and Federal Cartridge Company Contract/Order Number N0016408DJN28 and has a charge weight per the specs of 41.745-grain (2.7 g).[15]
Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm, NATO, Ball, Barrier, T762TNB1 MK319 MOD 0 (United States): 7.62×51mm NATO Enhance Behind barrier performance Enhance Function & casualty and muzzle flash requirements in short barrel carbines, 130 grains (8.4 g).[15]


The US also uses a dandy little gadget called the 40mm Grenade Launcher. Either the M203 which mounts under the barrel of the M16, or the M79, and older stand alone firearm. THAT has dozens of different rounds.



__________________

What we have here is... failure- to communicate.

c3shooter is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
.17hmr ammo types ss33204 .22 Rifle/Rimfire Discussion 10 11-15-2012 04:21 PM
Ammo types SmithKid308 General Shotgun Discussion 3 07-28-2011 11:53 PM
Different Types Of Ammo TexasRed Ammunition & Reloading 11 03-23-2011 03:44 PM
Types of .22 ammo phoinixbird .22 Rifle/Rimfire Discussion 11 04-16-2010 01:14 AM
Can You Combine 2 Types of Ammo in 1 Mag? supersonic Glock Forum 4 06-21-2007 11:15 PM