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Old 07-14-2015, 09:06 PM   #1
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Default Nato Vrs Commercial

I often hear "is there a difference between 223 and 5.56" and "Are 7.62x51 and .308 the same thing"

My only answer is yes and no.

First let's take a look at the 5.56/223.
From a dimensional standpoint yes they are the same but as far a pressure goes, the 556 is much hotter than the 223 rem.

223 rem usually takes 36, 55, 60, 69, and 77 grain bullets ranging from 3,750 to 2,750 fps in a 24 in barrel.

5.56 typically has 2 main bullet Weights, 62 and 63 gr Screaming at ~3100 fps out of a 20 in barrel.

5.56 has a thicker casing to withstand higher pressures.

Now the question is: Can I run 5.56 in my 223 rifle? The answer is definitely not.

If your rifle was made for 223, SHOOT 223! The higher pressure of 5.56 can be very bad news for your 223 chambered rifle. If you happen to have a 5.56 chambered rifle it is safe to run 223 through it, while you might not get tack driving accuracy, it should work.

Moral of the story, 223 rifles shoot 223. 5.56NATO rifles shoot 5.56 AND 223

On to the 7.62x51/.308 Win ordeal
While again, they are very similar In size, this time the commercial cartridge (.308) is loaded to a higher pressure (62,000psi) where the 7.62x51 is loaded to a max of (50,000psi)

7.62x51 usually has 147 and 175 gr bullets zipping along somewhere around 2600fps in a 24 in barrel where .308 comes in 150, 165, 168, 175 and 185 gr bullets screaming down range at 2,500-2,800 fps.

So the moral of the story in this case is now vice versa from the 223/5.56 situation .308 is Not safe to run in a 7.62x51 a chamber but you can shoot 7.62x51 in a .308 chamber

Handloaders and those new to shooting, please do some research before you start interchangeing calibers because it could be fatal to your rifle, and possibly to you.

Safe shooting,

Whiskey hotel



Last edited by WhiskeyHotel313; 07-14-2015 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 07-23-2015, 08:00 PM   #2
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Both the .223 and 5.56 are loaded to the same chamber pressure of SAAMI 52,000 cup, 55,000 psi or European NATO CIP of 62,000 psi measured at the case mouth. NOTE: all three of these chamber pressures are the exact same pressure measured three different ways.

The Lake City 5.56 case is not made thicker, it is made of harder brass and has the most case capacity of all .223/5.56 cases.

Nato Vrs Commercial - Ammunition & Reloading

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You can't make the .223/5.56 case thicker like military 7.62 brass because it would decrease case capacity and pressure and velocity would be far lower.

The only difference between "some" .223 rifles and the AR15 rifle is the throat which does effect pressure.

Nato Vrs Commercial - Ammunition & Reloading

"IF" you fire M885 5.56 ammunition in a short throated chamber the chamber pressure will be much higher than normal.

Nato Vrs Commercial - Ammunition & Reloading

Also note that the SAAMI interchangeability warning for the .223/5.56 did not come out until 1979 with the introduction of M885 ammunition and making the throats longer in the M16 rifles.

I have two AR15 rifles and a bolt action Savage .223 and the throat in the Savage rifle is longer than my AR15 rifles. And it is the 1 in 14 and 1 in 12 twist .223 rifles that normally have the shorter throats designed for lighter bullets.

If your going to write information WhiskeyHotel313 you need to get all the facts before posting unfounded rumors.

5.56 vs .223 – What You Know May Be Wrong
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

HOLLIGER ON .223/5.56 CHAMBERS
http://www.radomski.us/njhp/cart_tech.htm



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Old 07-24-2015, 12:49 PM   #3
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Ah yes, the 223/5.56 and 308/7.62 myths that will not die.
Myth #1, 5.56 brass is thicker and has less case capacity.
Note the chart below. The military 5.56 case actually have more capacity and are not heavier than 223.

http://www.6mmbr.com/223rem.HTML

As for the 308 vs 7.62 pressures, they are identical. Here is a simple comparison. Below is a box of Federal 308 168gr ammo, it has a velocity rating of 2650 fps.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/953358610/federal-premium-gold-medal-ammunition-308-winchester-168-grain-sierra-matchking-hollow-point-boat-tail?cm_vc=ProductFinding

Here we have a box of Federal 168gr 7.62 NATO. It also has a velocity rating of 2650fps.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/953713383/federal-american-eagle-ammunition-762x51mm-nato-168-grain-open-tip-match?cm_vc=ProductFinding

So with that in mind explain how these two loads with identical bullet weights, same case dimensions, same manufacturer can have identical velocities with pressures differing by 12,000 psi.

Fact is they cant, only conclusion is that they are running at identical pressures.

Here is a simple question for you handloaders
With all the thousands of 7.62 chambered rifles out there and all the thousands of handloaders building loads for them, WHY do we not see any published load data for this cartridge?
If it is supposed to be running at 12,000 less psi then a 308, you would think there would be tone of data, yet there is none.
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Old 07-24-2015, 08:09 PM   #4
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Here is an interesting Article on 308 v 7.62 and pressures.

http://www.docdroid.net/shd8/the-truth-about-308-win-and-762-nato.pdf.html



From page 5-6.

Quote:
Pressure Confusion
However, neither method addresses the figure “50,000 PSI” that is so often misquoted, especially by
“expert” sources such as 6mmbr.com and surplusrifle.com.
This figure comes from the US Army in various technical manuals, most notably, TM-D001-27

The real problem is the confusion between the old and the new methods of pressure testing. The old
pressure testing method used for the 7.62 NATO cartridge started out life in the 1950s and is still
published today in the US Army Technical Manuals. The figures are based on the copper crusher
method in CUP, but are published as PSI
.
The new method is the piezoelectric strain gauge transducer method; it is the same technology used
today to show an automobile’s oil pressure. The piezoelectric strain gauge transducer pressure method
is a direct pressure reading based on an absolute standard, where the older copper crusher method a
conversion based on a relative measure and a conversion chart. And this is why you see the difference in
the pressure readings, but the older 52,000 CUP is equal to 62,000 PSI (piezoelectric transducer
method).
Today, these two methods are called CUP and PSI and the readings are different, but 52,000 CUP
equals 62,000 PSI and both are the same pressure, similar to the way 60 MPH equals 100 KPH.
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Old 07-24-2015, 08:45 PM   #5
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Here is the culprit Right here.

The famous TM-0001-27.

http://www.ar15.com/content/webPDF/TM43-0001-27.pdf

Here is the page that lists the 7.62 ball at 50,000 psi.

http://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/348/32231.JPG

As we know this ammo was never tested in psi, but in CUP, so the correct listing should be 50,000 CUP, NOT psi.

Also note that the SAAMI pressure rating for the 308 Winchester is 52,000 CUP.

Seen here page 16.

http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf

If we scroll down to page 21 we see the same loads with the same velocities also listed in PSI. 62,000 PSI.

The conclusion the 50K CUP Nato and the 62K psi (52K CUP) 308 win run at identical pressures.
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Old 07-24-2015, 10:16 PM   #6
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You one should not shoot 5.56 NATO ammunition in a true 223 Remington chambered rifle.
The reason is the pressure caused by the different chambers in the rifles. The Head Space of the 223 and the 5.56 are the same. But the difference is the 5.56 NATO Chamber has "Free Bore" while the 223 Remington chamber does not have any! Mil-Spec ammunition is normally hotter than commercial ammunition. And even comparing commercial to commercial and military to military there can be considerable pressure differences. If the 5.56 NATO is shot in the true 223 Remington Chamber the pressure spikes immediately since the chamber has NO FREE BORE! The rounds are not that much difference as stated other than load pressures. It is all in the chamber! You can shoot 223 in the 5.56 NATO Chamber or Wylde Chamber with no problem.

03
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Old 07-24-2015, 10:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper03 View Post
You one should not shoot 5.56 NATO ammunition in a true 223 Remington chambered rifle.
The reason is the pressure caused by the different chambers in the rifles. The Head Space of the 223 and the 5.56 are the same. But the difference is the 5.56 NATO Chamber has "Free Bore" while the 223 Remington chamber does not have any! Mil-Spec ammunition is normally hotter than commercial ammunition. And even comparing commercial to commercial and military to military there can be considerable pressure differences. If the 5.56 NATO is shot in the true 223 Remington Chamber the pressure spikes immediately since the chamber has NO FREE BORE! The rounds are not that much difference as stated other than load pressures. It is all in the chamber! You can shoot 223 in the 5.56 NATO Chamber or Wylde Chamber with no problem.

03
All chambers correctly cut have a certain amount of "free Bore". Yes, even the 223.

Note dimension (N).

Nato Vrs Commercial - Ammunition & Reloading

The 223 varies from the longest Throat (.068 PTC 223 Match) to the shortest throat (.025).

The 5.56 also varies from .025 to .0566. So basically some 223 have longer throats (freebore) than all of the above 5.56.

Another myth busted.

Also looking at this actual pressure tested data from Barnes bullets, we can see that firing a 5.56 round in a SAAMI 223 chamber only increased pressure about 5K compared to the 5.56 round.

Even with that 5K increase the 5.56 round did not exceed 60K psi.

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Old 07-25-2015, 06:51 AM   #8
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When I weighed commercial brass and military the commercial stuff weighs more. S&B .223 weighed considerably more than 5.56 lake city brass. So yeah that sort of busts the myth of military being thicker. One only has to measure OAL to bust the other myth of free bore. The difference in brass thickness has more to do with specific manufacturers than it does with military vs. commercial. This is why we load in lots of the same brass and don't mix them. Then there is the matter of reloading manuals, they make no distinction between the two. When was the last time you saw a set of 5.56 dies?
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Old 07-25-2015, 11:14 AM   #9
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Here is the data page for the 308 Win from Lyman 48.

Note that they also list the 7.62 X 51 (7.62 NATO).

Lyman 48 says that the 7.62 and the 308 share the same load data. No way this can be possible if one runs at 62K psi and the other at 50K psi.

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Old 07-25-2015, 11:21 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjd3282 View Post
When I weighed commercial brass and military the commercial stuff weighs more. S&B .223 weighed considerably more than 5.56 lake city brass. So yeah that sort of busts the myth of military being thicker. One only has to measure OAL to bust the other myth of free bore. The difference in brass thickness has more to do with specific manufacturers than it does with military vs. commercial. This is why we load in lots of the same brass and don't mix them. Then there is the matter of reloading manuals, they make no distinction between the two. When was the last time you saw a set of 5.56 dies?
This is from Sierra.

The conventional wisdom to reduce loads with military brass is familiar to most reloaders and is generally good advice. The rationale here is that the military cases tend to be somewhat thicker and heavier than their civilian counterparts, which in turn reduces capacity and raises pressures. This additional pressure normally requires a one or two grain reduction from the loads shown in most manuals or other data developed with commercial cases. While this is most often the situation with both 308 Winchester and 30-06 cases, it is less true with the 223 brass. We have found that military cases often have significantly more capacity than several brands of commercial brass. Again, take the time to do a side-by-side comparison of the cases you are working with and adjust your load as needed. There may be no need for such a reduction with the 223. Know your components and keep them segregated accordingly.


http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm


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