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-   -   Mil-spec FMJ vs Civ FMJ and TMJ vs CMJ (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f30/mil-spec-fmj-vs-civ-fmj-tmj-vs-cmj-107311/)

Secondhand_Hero 05-25-2014 06:05 PM

Mil-spec FMJ vs Civ FMJ and TMJ vs CMJ
 
Hello, users! This is my first time on in a long while (due mainly to my own lack of knowledge and desire to better acquaint myself with firearms in general) and what has brought me back is the lack of information, and worse yet, MISinformation, about the differences between these rounds around the interweb.

Now, of course, FMJ's (or at least civ-spec) have exposed lead on the ass-end of munitions whereas TMJ's do not, meaning that TMJ's are more user-friendly in terms of lead poisoning but this is about as far as i have been able to get in my research.

i have read that Mil and Civ spec FMJ's differ in terms of Mil having generally thicker jackets and more uniform builds while more closely resembling a standard TMJ in terms of modeling (due to Gen Convention) but i don't know how much of that is true.

As for TMJ vs CMJ, is there a difference at all? Are they the same beast under different names?

Also; ballistics, reliability, quality, and overall performance comparisons would be swell~

Thank you in advance for all of the help, friends!

JonM 05-25-2014 09:01 PM

depends on who is making the bullet.

military 55grain fmj is pretty shoddy stuff. ive shot a lot of it and reloaded a lot of it sourced from pulled ammo. jacket thicknesses vary greatly and is often visibly not concentric.

most civvy 55grain follows this pattern.

it works decent enough out to 300yards and is really good for defensive use.

if you want an accurate bullet the sierra matchkings are superb.

Professor 05-25-2014 11:26 PM

Speaking of pulled ammo (question directed toward Jon), how IS pulled ammo? I see a lot of it for sale, but am not sure how "damaged" it is from the pulling process. (These bullets would be used for general plinking and target practice at no more than 150 yds.)

Axxe55 05-25-2014 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor (Post 1581538)
Speaking of pulled ammo (question directed toward Jon), how IS pulled ammo? I see a lot of it for sale, but am not sure how "damaged" it is from the pulling process. (These bullets would be used for general plinking and target practice at no more than 150 yds.)

you can use a collet style puller that mounts in place of a die in your press or an inertia type to pull it out of the case.

now how they pull them commercially in large lots, i not for sure what methods they would use.

JonM 05-26-2014 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor (Post 1581538)
Speaking of pulled ammo (question directed toward Jon), how IS pulled ammo? I see a lot of it for sale, but am not sure how "damaged" it is from the pulling process. (These bullets would be used for general plinking and target practice at no more than 150 yds.)

perfect for your needs. its what i use pulled ammo for

they work just fine. ive got about 500 175grn m118 air pulls for the 308 from milsurp sniper ammo. not as good as sierra 168 match kings but still a nice sub to 1 moa bullet.

military ammo is not as consistant as civilian stuff but its cheap and very good for plinking and training. the only reason its cheap is because we the people paid about 4 times its value to produce it then paid someon else to dispose of it...

just because something is military doesnt always mean its the best. this is especially true with ammunition. almost all military ammo is vastly inferior to civilian ammo. if ammo companies dont produce a good product it wont sell well. government run anything is usually shoddy and bottom barrel.

if you want quality, cheap prices, resoponsive service private sector is the best place. if you want high priced junk just hand out a government contract.

Secondhand_Hero 05-26-2014 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonM (Post 1581582)
perfect for your needs. its what i use pulled ammo for

they work just fine. ive got about 500 175grn m118 air pulls for the 308 from milsurp sniper ammo. not as good as sierra 168 match kings but still a nice sub to 1 moa bullet.

military ammo is not as consistant as civilian stuff but its cheap and very good for plinking and training. the only reason its cheap is because we the people paid about 4 times its value to produce it then paid someon else to dispose of it...

just because something is military doesnt always mean its the best. this is especially true with ammunition. almost all military ammo is vastly inferior to civilian ammo. if ammo companies dont produce a good product it wont sell well. government run anything is usually shoddy and bottom barrel.

if you want quality, cheap prices, resoponsive service private sector is the best place. if you want high priced junk just hand out a government contract.

Well it sounds to me like you're also hinting towards which of the two (between Civ and Mil-spec) FMJ's are a more reliable choice in terms of performance!

Mercator 05-26-2014 03:19 AM

Between TMJ and FMJ there is a difference without distinction. In TMJ everything is "encapsulated", so the primer will not release vaporized lead in your face. That's CCI's marketing claim. In reality, lead poisoning from shooting FMJ is rare as hen's teeth, possibly nonexistent. In that sense, TMJ is a cure looking for a disease. I don't know every intricacy of their manufacturing, only that CCI errs on the side of hot air.

JonM 05-26-2014 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Secondhand_Hero (Post 1581628)
Well it sounds to me like you're also hinting towards which of the two (between Civ and Mil-spec) FMJ's are a more reliable choice in terms of performance!

yup. in general civilian bullets will perform better. if you need tracer explosive components armor piercing etc thats where military ammo is better. in terms of accuracy civilian bullets win.

Secondhand_Hero 05-26-2014 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercator (Post 1581635)
Between TMJ and FMJ there is a difference without distinction. In TMJ everything is "encapsulated", so the primer will not release vaporized lead in your face. That's CCI's marketing claim. In reality, lead poisoning from shooting FMJ is rare as hen's teeth, possibly nonexistent. In that sense, TMJ is a cure looking for a disease. I don't know every intricacy of their manufacturing, only that CCI errs on the side of hot air.

That's more along the lines of what i was taking from past forums read; along with a possible wear to the case due to the dispelled lead that normally leaves the case flat.. That and from the hard contact of a TMJ it can lead to a quicker wear on either the barrel or the firing pin.. Any thoughts on either of those?

Also, do you know if there is a difference between a Complete Metal Jacket and a Total Metal Jacket? i believe they are simply different names for the same thing when looking at the basic construction of the two but i'd hate to make the assumption off of a basic understanding.

Professor 05-26-2014 12:15 PM

1st) Thanks for the clarifications on pulled bullets.........2nd) regarding TMJ being safer: well yeah, it is....BUT....I think that the danger from exposed (to burning gases) lead is SLIGHTLY over stated, and just another reason used by the anti-gun crowd to ban shooting or indoor ranges.
Whenever I melt/cast lead I do it outdoors, but I don't lose sleep if I shot some NON-tmj rounds indoors.


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