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Old 06-04-2011, 01:37 PM   #1
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Default Learned something new today

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The 9mm Luger cartridge (also known as the 9mm Parabellum, 9mm NATO, and 9x19mm) is actually the oldest of today's mainstream semiautomatic pistol rounds (it was introduced in 1902), but because of its comparatively recent surge to popularity in this country, most American shooters think of it as relatively "modern" in comparison to other popular autoloader cartridges like the .45 ACP (1905).
I was one of those that just assumed that the 9mm was a "modern" round.


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Old 06-04-2011, 03:00 PM   #2
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I know its not all that popular, but I believe that the .32 acp was introduced in the late 1890s, but I still prefer the good ole .45 acp to most other pistol cartridges.



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Old 06-05-2011, 10:53 PM   #3
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Just to be a smart ass, what did you think the 1908 "Luger" 9mm was loaded with, if not 9mm Luger?
Reminds me of a guy who suddenly realized that GM actually made cars and trucks and not just motors...

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Old 06-06-2011, 12:44 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by noylj View Post
Just to be a smart ass, what did you think the 1908 "Luger" 9mm was loaded with, if not 9mm Luger?
Reminds me of a guy who suddenly realized that GM actually made cars and trucks and not just motors...
funny what you can learn huh? my cousin thought .30-06 was new...I gave him a brief lesson of the round
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Old 06-06-2011, 04:05 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Jake15 View Post
I know its not all that popular, but I believe that the .32 acp was introduced in the late 1890s, but I still prefer the good ole .45 acp to most other pistol cartridges.
The .32 ACP came within hair of beating out the .45 ACP when the Army was testing Browning's pistol design...can't imagine the 1911 would have lasted 100 years as a .32 caliber pistol.
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Old 06-06-2011, 05:35 AM   #6
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The .32 ACP came within hair of beating out the .45 ACP when the Army was testing Browning's pistol design...can't imagine the 1911 would have lasted 100 years as a .32 caliber pistol.
I thought the Army specifically requested an auto loading pistol designed
around a 45 cal. bullet when they went to Browning, this is the first time
reading the 32ACP competed with, and nearly beat the 45ACP

I have read that some people think if cartridge choice had been Browning's
decision, the 1911 would have been chambered in 38-Super

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Based on the experience with the Moros and extensive testing on animals and human cadavers, an Army Ordnance Board headed by Col. John T. Thompson (inventor of the Thompson sub-machine-gun) and Col. Louis A. La Garde, determined that the Army needed a .45 caliber cartridge to provide adequate stopping power. In the mean time, Browning who was working for Colt, had already designed an autoloader pistol, around a cartridge similar in dimension to the .38 Super. When the Army requested designs for a new handgun, Browning re-engineered this .38 autoloader to accommodate a .45" diameter cartridge of his own design with a 230 gr. FMJ bullet, and submitted the pistol to the Army for evaluation.
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Old 06-06-2011, 12:38 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by MidnightExpress View Post
I thought the Army specifically requested an auto loading pistol designed
around a 45 cal. bullet when they went to Browning, this is the first time
reading the 32ACP competed with, and nearly beat the 45ACP

I have read that some people think if cartridge choice had been Browning's
decision, the 1911 would have been chambered in 38-Super
You could be right...I was recalling something I had read about the trials and remembered a .3X caliber being in contention. I'll see if I can locate the original article, it may have been in an earlier Guns and Ammo or American Rifleman.
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Old 06-06-2011, 03:26 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Jpyle View Post
You could be right...I was recalling something I had read about the trials and remembered a .3X caliber being in contention. I'll see if I can locate the original article, it may have been in an earlier Guns and Ammo or American Rifleman.
you may be thinking of the 38-Super, I think I read it was one of the rounds
being considered by the Army at the time.

I read that he was working on, or completed a .32 blowback pistol just before
he started the 1911. it was similar to the fixed barreled .380's, .32's etc. we're
accustomed to seeing today, if I'm remembering right

there's also a model 1900 that was chambered in .38 ACP, a round I just
recently read about, it wasn't the 380 Auto or the 9x23 Winchester even
though metric designation for the round is 9x23mmSR. I think the .38ACP
is the 38 pistol mentioned in the quote above

it seems Browning was a busy man during the late 1800's and early 1900's and
it appears he was found of the .38 cal. rounds

with these being Wiki links, the information may not be 100% accurate

Colt M1900 - Wikipedia

.38 ACP - Wikipedia

the quote in my earlier post was taken from the site below, with so many
articles and web sites covering John Browning, the 1911 and the 45ACP it's
not hard to get the information mixed up

The Sight's 1911 .45 ACP History
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Old 06-06-2011, 07:05 PM   #9
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I want my 1911 in 9x23 win mag. Sounds to me like a killer round...
From the website:http://www.burnscustom.com/9x23.html

"New cartridges are about as common as promises in a political campaign - and usually about as effective. But occasionally there comes a ballistic inovation that, combined with the right firearm, promises true usefulness rather than mere marketablility - the 9 X 23 might just be such an innovation."
- Jim Higginbotham

"The 9x23 has the ability to be to the future what the .38 Super was to the 1920s. Both have a flat trajectory, high velocity and, now, adequate bullet design-the 38 Super lacks the higher velocity of the 9x23mm but they both share the same Winchester Silvertip 9mm bullets. Both lack a wide choice of bullet configurations. If the ammo companies get interested in this updated version of a long 9mm, the potential is there for an excellent small game and personal defense round. Both round are only hindered by the need for a large frame semi auto to handle them"
- Walter Rauch

Since the original conversations about the implementation of the 10 rd magazine ban I have been searching for the very best 9mm size rd for the 1911 gun platform. With a long history in IPSC I have been through the generations of major 9mm and major 38 Super rounds. There have been whole generations of 9mm major cartridge combinations for the 1911. Col. Cooper did an early version by chopping off 223 brass and shooting at major, the "Super Cooper". There have been 9x19s loaded short to major and the 9x21, the 356 TSW, 38 Super at major and the new brood of 9mm Supercomp and 38 Supercomp and finally the John Ricco version that came before the super comps: CP 9x23 and it's stolen twin, Winchester 9x23.

Winchester 9x23 is the best of the bunch. I think the more you research this round the more you will be impressed with it. When folks like Walt Rauch, Ken Hackathorn, Ed Brown, Mike Bane and the US Special Ops Command are all interested in the same thing and think it's a BETTER idea it bears looking into.

The 9x23 is worth keeping track of. Things keep getting better for a round that should have died after being still born and being marketed by a company (Winchester in this case) that has never seen the full potenial of the round.

Where is the potenial? It's in your carry gun. A 11 rd 1911 with the power of the very hottest 357 magnum.

As a bonus I can shoot the 9x23 outta my Medusa too!

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Old 06-06-2011, 08:08 PM   #10
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There was at a time a .38ACP (and it is not the same as the .38Super).



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