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Old 08-22-2013, 05:38 AM   #21
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I was just using the 30-30 as a example and generally people keep rimmed cartridges out of auto's I guess because they are rimmed but the SVT40 and other similar guns worked pretty well, I have shot the 270 and the 30-30. I won't lie I don't have much trigger time behind the AR platforms, I used 55 grains just because it was just easier for me. To me a 30-30 and a 270 really don't have that much recoil but then again it could be completely different coming out of an automatic.

One of the big things they were using back in the day was the "meat axe" effect of the bullet doing a lot of tumbling when it hit the target, they were suppose to be really lethal but after some tweaking to make the rifle more accurate it changed things.

I know that are military works differently then they use to I'm just thinking that one day we might end up in a war where things are completely different and that our guys won't be able to radio in for arty or air support and they might be stuck with there small arms to survive. I know it sounds out there but stuff can happen. So basically what your saying is that the military says it effective out to 500 meters but really it's mostly be used within 300, so really it is effective for what it's being used for and rounds like the 308 have become LMG, special marksman, and snipers rounds.

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Old 08-22-2013, 06:42 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclebear View Post
So basically what your saying is that the military says it effective out to 500 meters but really it's mostly be used within 300, so really it is effective for what it's being used for and rounds like the 308 have become LMG, special marksman, and snipers rounds.
Kind of.

The M16 is still effective in the right hands up to around 800 meters. Any Marine can shoot effectively to at least 500 yards. 800 meters is a bit farther, yes, but it wouldn't be that much of a stretch for a lot of guys. You can talk about the ballistics all you want of any cartridge. The fact is, Marines are trained to shoot great distances and if they hit a guy at 800 yards (well outside the typical combat range anyway), that guy isn't going to be combat effective anyway. He's probably down and out. Even if he's hopped on Khat or something, by the time he gets in range with his own weapon system, he's out of the fight. Unless he's a mortarmen or a sniper. In which case, if you're shooting a sniper with a grunt model M16, you're doing something wrong.

Every Marine line company has at least a platoon of scout snipers. It wouldn't be that difficult to get one there quick fast and in a hurry. But if they were all dead or gone, yes most Marines could engage targets successfully at 800 yards.

By the way, a lot of the time that distance would be deemed not a threat (unless a sniper or some other long range weapon system) and therefore nowadays it wouldn't be in their Rules of Engagement to fire at the dude.
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Old 08-22-2013, 07:08 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by unclebear
Ok I got talking to a guy about the M16's, about why is the military still using the 5.56. After a bit of number crunching I found that the 5.56 pretty much sucks past 500 yards.

At 500 yards with a 5.56 using a 55gr bullet it hits with about 350 ft-ib. Where a 30-30 theoretically hits with around 400 ft-ibs using a 170gr bullet. I know the diameter and the weight of the bullets are different but it's just a comparison.

Now the military says the M16 is effective for a point target out to 550 meters and an area target out to 800 meters?

I can see the 500 meter mark possible but what the 800 meter is just to give people the impression that someone is shooting at them?

Why are we using the 5.56 when the 30-30 or even a 270 win has more power and about the same recoil?
Do you know what it means when they say Maximum effective range ?
Maximum Range - 3,600 m
Max Effective Range for a Point Target - 550 m
Max Effective Range for an Area Target - 800 m

When I was in the army we shot at targets out 600 m with an M16 and I would hit them all day long
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:37 AM   #24
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The thing I was wondering about wasn't actually hitting the target, I know the AR's with the 5.56 are accurate that's never really been a question it was pretty much about how hard the 5.56 hits at extended ranges, I know the round has enough energy to punch holes in paper or ring a plate.

Just by numbers it really doesn't seem like it would actually be effective at stopping a human target at extended ranges. I got the idea about the use of the round in modern combat. Thanks for JW357 for the info, thanks guy for the info and strong points.

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Old 08-22-2013, 09:16 PM   #25
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There is a concept in systems engineering that address installed base.
Cost is a driving factor and the installed base must be considered.

Let's go ahead and accept the 5.56 is preferred for intended effectiveness, weight of carried rounds and all that.

But any change to the 5.56 would affect the rifle itself, requiring changes, even a 6mm variant would require re-barreling at least.

I'm sure if funding were available, the AR15 platform could be reworked for another caliber, without sacrificing the investment in training on this platform.

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