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Old 11-30-2009, 11:45 PM   #21
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Black hills 36gr generates 1124 ft.lbs of energy. So you're dumping over 1/2 ton of energy into a 6" crater. The wound channel must be incredible.

You're looking for something with limited penetration to minimize collateral damage, so there has to be a trade off. Either less energy or more rapid expansion. A 22LR solid will prob penetrate deeper but I think the 36gr .223 will stop the fight quicker.
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Food for thought, If you get wacked in the chest with an 18lb sledge hammer, there will be zero penetration but I doubt you will be able to continue the fight.

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Old 12-01-2009, 06:27 PM   #22
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Default Good logic.

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Originally Posted by Shooter girl View Post
I would not carry something that can not penetrate 12 inches of flesh. It looks good when you are shooting at someone squared off to you, but that really doesn't happen much. Anything less than 12 inches and you are not likely to hit multiple vital organs that will drop them quickly. Six inches and you are not likely to do significant damage to the BG unless you are taking a straight up frontal shot.
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Shooter girl:

Thank you for posting.

Your logic makes perfect sense to me;
But mostly for the needs of Military & LE, and I agree that I might not want a Duty round that wont do what I need it to do in the myriad environments that I would be operating in.

I have nothing against a round that produces 12inches of pen.
(The FBI tested and achieved that depth in jello)
as long as it stays only "in the flesh" . . of the threat that is.


I am still just a little teensy bit squeamish when it comes to any collateral damage.

(In this particular

Hypothetical scenario):

There is no room for ANY Collateral damage or friendly fire.

(I don't want my fired round/s visiting the neighbors children and tapping them ever so gently on the shoulder and saying wakie wakie eggs & Bakei . . !

Now if I can get what (THIS HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO requires) and it comes w/ 12" to infinity of inches in flesh only penetration then I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with that.

But "Shooter girl" I think that we both know Bullet design generally doesn't work like that.
We usually have to make less than ideal compromises . .
(in the voice of Gunny Ermy: Now troops this is for the good of the mission.)

. .such as in this case.

Usually if you want to have no penetration of walls & windows
w/ the bullet remaining intact after pen. of the W/W then the bullets are usually made to achieve that requirement in such a way that (as a coincidence) they have a tendency to pen. a bit shallowly in soft flesh.

I can live with that compromise but I doubt I could or would want to live w/ myself for going the other way & the unmentionable tragedy occurred,

Having said all that; I still have not made any candidate selections yet.

Your opinions are appreciated & taken under advisement.

Thanks
N.D.
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Old 12-01-2009, 08:52 PM   #23
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Having personally seen what a 55 gr BTHP will do after passing through a normal couch pillow, I do not trust it to penetrate sufficiently to stop an intruder. Fragmentation was complete BEFORE entry into the chest cavity. With a straight on thoracic shot had enough penetration to destroy the heart and prove fatal but the shot would have been questionable for any other angle.
The problem is if you find a load that will not penetrate wall board, it is not likely to penetrate a body sufficiently.
That's the problem with compromises. They do not fulfill ALL requirements.

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Old 12-01-2009, 09:43 PM   #24
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Default I know!

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Originally Posted by robocop10mm View Post
The problem is if you find a load that will not penetrate wall board, it is not likely to penetrate a body sufficiently.
That's the problem with compromises. They do not fulfill ALL requirements.
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robo:

Thanks for posting!

You are so very right Compromises really do suck.
I really do hate compromises . .

. . But compromises must be made!
(its For the good of the cause soldier ) lol

Scr*w the Damn Shotgun!

Because what I would really prefer to use for home defense is a FREE
(no cost to me) full auto 40MM grenade launcher or a full auto 80MM Morter that never has to be reloaded or cleaned and produces no unwanted results whatsoever when I use it IE; friendly fire, recoil, oh and I want it to never run out of ammo either ETC.

while I'm wishing in one hand and watching the other hand get full;
I also want Immunity for any actions I may take during my entire life time.

I know Its a tough decision, but I will fire until the threat is over or until I run out of ammo,
whatever that ammo may be.
I still have not chosen an ammo candidate yet.

I just know what the ammo MUST not do in this scenario and that is why we do research; to see what advances have been made when we aren't looking (those sneaky ammo designers)

Thanks
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Old 12-01-2009, 10:46 PM   #25
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You have been cordial and all, and others have been to you.

But at some point diplomacy has to be dropped.

You have been given numerous options, and every one you have dismissed. So ya know what? Suck it. The best option that meets all of your requirements save one is the shotgun. Low cost, low recoil (limited recoil rounds), limited barrier penetration, and good effects on target.

Deal with it. Inside the home limited recoil No4 buck will not kick all that much. It will put the BG down, and it will not likely penetrate multiple walls in normal built to code homes.

Good bye. Im done with this thread.

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Old 12-02-2009, 12:54 AM   #26
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Default in response to Shooter girl:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooter girl View Post
You have been cordial and all, and others have been to you.

But at some point diplomacy has to be dropped.

You have been given numerous options, and every one you have dismissed. So ya know what? Suck it. The best option that meets all of your requirements save one is the shotgun. Low cost, low recoil (limited recoil rounds), limited barrier penetration, and good effects on target.

Deal with it. Inside the home limited recoil No4 buck will not kick all that much. It will put the BG down, and it will not likely penetrate multiple walls in normal built to code homes.

Good bye. I'm done with this thread.
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Shooter girl:

Thank you for your input.

But I must disagree.

I am not dismissing any load suggestions for "either" "of this threads" "2" chosen calibers 5.56MM & 7.62x39MM.
I'm only waiting to make a choice until all the possible ammo options that fit this threads criteria are exhausted; and I don't really think we've yet come close to exhausting all the commercially produced ammo options to make a choice from either .


I am very sorry if I have caused you or any one else here to become annoyed or frustrated with me or with my interest in discussing this particular subject matter at length, as this was & is not my goal.

I have found every bit of this thread to be a very enjoyable, informative and thought provoking exercise in and of its self and
I really do appreciate all the interesting input from you and everyone else participating in this thread, and I am truly sorry you no longer wish to participate with in this thread.

BTW: I love your sig line.

Bye
N.D.
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Old 12-02-2009, 03:06 AM   #27
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Default I like a good Energy Dump every now & then! lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatekeeper View Post
Black hills 36gr generates 1124 ft.lbs of energy. So you're dumping over 1/2 ton of energy into a 6" crater. The wound channel must be incredible.

You're looking for something with limited penetration to minimize collateral damage, so there has to be a trade off. Either less energy or more rapid expansion. A 22LR solid will prob penetrate deeper but I think the 36gr .223 will stop the fight quicker.
----------------
Food for thought, If you get whacked in the chest with an 18lb sledge hammer, there will be zero penetration but I doubt you will be able to continue the fight.
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Gate:


Thanks for posting.

I agree with you on all three points!

I bet any volatile round such as you just mentioned if introduced into the chest cavity of a felon would create a very large un -treatable wound that would probably pour a larger amount of blood fast,quick, and in a hurry, than the former mayor of Detroit pours champagne on new years and all with just one shot.

Butt . .

The only potential glitch in the whole thing that still worries me is if it (this round we are discussing) will indeed make it into the chest cavity of the theoretical felon, IE; through their heavy winter clothing ETC.
and I agree that "if" "all" that energy was to actually hit one in the chest and not pen. one would still probably succumb to blunt force trauma fairly quickly.
but there are still other variables to consider on the BFT theory such as "if" the round should begin to fragment or even worse completely fragment before hitting the theoretical bad guy in the chest (how much energy loss would occur before impact) what would be the effect on the target then? I fear that in some instances it might be minimal at best and in that scenario probably would not be a decisive fight stopper. HMMMM
I have heard of some specialty ammo used & recommended by the late J. Cirrillo as a very reliable very fast fight stopper, that does not ever over pen in flesh; I wonder if you or anyone else here has heard of it I think it is called something like RCBS or RBCS platinum plus ammo.
So far you and everyone else has been making some very interesting and enlightening suggestions and I appreciate them all.
This is all very thought provoking.

N.D.
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Old 12-02-2009, 11:48 AM   #28
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Dude eveyone is forgetting the best mostest greatest Tactical 556 round ever.

The Extreme Shock FHVL rounds.

Nothing beats the exploding underpants power of the Extreme Shock ammo.


Here is the biggest problem. Your wanting to use VARMINT ammunition on a human. Varmint bullets are made to dump all their energy into very small (IE Ground Hogs, Squirrels, ect.....) animals. These rounds are not meant for PD SD use. they are very fragile I have been a varmint hunter all my life. a Barnes varmint grenades are made to expend all their energy into a very small target. By someone layering clothing it is going to defeat the rounds very easy.

There are 2 options. Buck up and learn how to shoot a shotgun (unless it is a medical condition). Or get a dam pistol like everyone else on the board. There are plenty of pistols out there that will do what you want. Or buckshot from a shotgun.

So there.

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Old 12-03-2009, 01:16 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpttango30 View Post
Dude eveyone is forgetting the best mostest greatest Tactical 556 round ever.

The Extreme Shock FHVL rounds.

Nothing beats the exploding underpants power of the Extreme Shock ammo.


Here is the biggest problem. Your wanting to use VARMINT ammunition on a human. Varmint bullets are made to dump all their energy into very small (IE Ground Hogs, Squirrels, ect.....) animals. These rounds are not meant for PD SD use. they are very fragile I have been a varmint hunter all my life. a Barnes varmint grenades are made to expend all their energy into a very small target. By someone layering clothing it is going to defeat the rounds very easy.

There are 2 options. Buck up and learn how to shoot a shotgun (unless it is a medical condition). Or get a dam pistol like everyone else on the board. There are plenty of pistols out there that will do what you want. Or buckshot from a shotgun.

So there.
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CPT:

Thanks for posting.

Yes its a med. cond. and yes I have plenty of shotgun experience. and yes I have pistols and experience in their use.
I am not wanting to use varmint ammo so much as I am just exploring the feasibility of using 5.56MM or 7.62x39MM ammo that wont be very likely to penetrate home drywall. Sheetrock, wallboard ETC. while still offering a reliable & quick stop to the fight.
I figure the bullet manufacturing technology is likely to exist, so I thought I would ask around and see if anyone here knew anything about it.

Do you have any experience with a round that fits the originally stated criteria?
You mentioned and provided a link to the Extreme Shock ammo site; do you have any experience with this ammo or anything like it?

N.D.
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Old 12-05-2009, 01:41 PM   #30
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OK look where do you live? Is it in a McMansion along with all your other yuppie friends or an appartment in the city or like many here out in the middle of the country side where your closest neighbor may be 500 to 1000+ yards away.

My dad lives in a area where the smallest lot size is 10 acres. The closes person to him is the neighbor on the left of him who is well over 200 yards away. If my dad came to me and asked what he needed for a Home Defense weapon. I would tell him to get a short barreld AR (M-4) and use Hornady TAP or something like that. Back up would be a Remmy 870 or Mossberg 500 loaded with 00 Buck. He lives in an area that he can afford to use a rifle.

If you live in the burbs you need a shotty or a pistol there is no other way around it that is it give up on using a high powered rifle for HD in the burbs or city. If you are so stuck on using it then do it. But make a note that more then likely your going to kill other people you are not wanting too......

If you can handle the recoil of a rifle then why can't you handle the recoil of a shotgun? There are other options other then the Water buffalo stomper 12ga 3.5" slugs you know. I found some 1.75" 12 ga buck shot rounds. I think these would be more than useful in a burb or apartment. I am no expert but I am sure a bad guy confronted with a 12 ga is going to know he effed the hell up..... He doesn't know your shooting 1.75" shells and not 3.5". Seeing as the engagement distance is something like 10 feet max I think these shells would work fine.

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