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MaGoo Idaho 04-22-2009 02:38 AM

Changing brass accuracy
 
I have a six month old 2008 Limited Edition Model 70 Featherweight. I have been working up some 165 gr Game King with three different Hodgdon powders, using all winchester brass. I load 12 of a given powder charge, use 4 different charges. I shoot them in 3 shot groups. That gives me four 3 shot groups for each powder charge. When I get home I measure each group, put that information in excel. Each cell has the group size in it, than I make a cell for Average and S.D. Powder A four different charge, each with four 3 shot groups. That is total of 16 groups averaged .88. Powder B with same as above average .88. Powder C with same as above .63.

Today I went to the range with the chronograph and the best four from above. I used LC brass the was once fired from my brother M-1. I am so discourage that I don't even want to measure them. Three groups were over 2", the best was around 1.25. Most were 1.375 to 1.625. I can toss rocks better then that. The only that changed was Winchester brass to LC brass and me.

Has anyone ever seen that big of change in brass? I know I do have bad days but not that bad. :mad:

mrm14 04-22-2009 03:35 AM

I assume LC brass is Lake City Brass. I have never used this stuff. However the recepies I was given for my 1000 yd. rifle ammo only included Nozler or Winchester Brass. The person that gave it to me without much detail was very adiment about these brands of brass for my precision loads. They work very well. I have heard that brass can make a difference in accuracy but I have no proof of this as I use Winchester and when I can find it Nozler brass. I reload .300 Win. Mag. for my long range bolt gun and .308 Win for my M1A and all reloads for these are using Winchester or Nozler brass. Hopefully someone on this forum can shed more light on this subject because I'd like to know more about this myself.

MaGoo Idaho 04-22-2009 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrm14 (Post 97755)
I assume LC brass is Lake City Brass. I have never used this stuff. However the recepies I was given for my 1000 yd. rifle ammo only included Nozler or Winchester Brass. The person that gave it to me without much detail was very adiment about these brands of brass for my precision loads. They work very well. I have heard that brass can make a difference in accuracy but I have no proof of this as I use Winchester and when I can find it Nozler brass. I reload .300 Win. Mag. for my long range bolt gun and .308 Win for my M1A and all reloads for these are using Winchester or Nozler brass. Hopefully someone on this forum can shed more light on this subject because I'd like to know more about this myself.

Yes it is Lake City Match 173 gr Sierra that was made in 1968. My brother has a lot that works very well in his M-1. He gave me some that was once fired from his gun. He also gave me 100 rounds to use in my Model 70. When I chambered it was pushing the bullet into the case near .040. Had to re-seat to .015 lead to ogive, but it still is crap.

robocop10mm 04-22-2009 12:21 PM

Weigh the empty cases after resizing and trimming. You will likely find a wide variance in case weights which equals different thicknesses and capacity. If you were to sort them by weight, you would get better results.

In my experience, the Winchester brass has a higher than normal variance in weight. Nosler brass should be very consistent.

RL357Mag 04-22-2009 09:58 PM

An article I read last December on accuracy loads for the .308 Win. stated that "once fired" brass was more accurate than factory brass. In a bolt gun like the Mod. 70, your best accuracy should come from brass that has only been neck sized. I have used Lake City brass in my DPMS LR-308B and my FR-8 Mauser and never had such inconsitencies in accuracy. The LC brass however will be a compressed load using the max load of powder due to the thicker wall normally found in military brass. I also use Hogdon powder exclusively and have found Varget and BL(C)-2 to be very accurate for the .308, often times making sub 1" groups. Last week I made a .40" group using 45.5 gr. of Varget behind a Berger 168gr. Match VLD bullet. I have a lot of luck with basic Remington brass.

MaGoo Idaho 04-22-2009 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RL357Mag (Post 97994)
An article I read last December on accuracy loads for the .308 Win. stated that "once fired" brass was more accurate than factory brass. In a bolt gun like the Mod. 70, your best accuracy should come from brass that has only been neck sized. I have used Lake City brass in my DPMS LR-308B and my FR-8 Mauser and never had such inconsitencies in accuracy. The LC brass however will be a compressed load using the max load of powder due to the thicker wall normally found in military brass. I also use Hogdon powder exclusively and have found Varget and BL(C)-2 to be very accurate for the .308, often times making sub 1" groups. Last week I made a .40" group using 45.5 gr. of Varget behind a Berger 168gr. Match VLD bullet. I have a lot of luck with basic Remington brass.

This is an 06 and is not any near a compressed load, that I do not do. I use the following, fastest to slowest H-4895, Varget, H-4350 and H-4831SC, in the following .223, .243, 25-35, .260, 270, 7mm-08, 300 Savage and 30-06. I think with 165 gr bullet and H-4831SC you could get to a compressed load, but it was not used. I do not load hot loads. Ninety percent of the time I neck size only. I only have one gun in each caliber that I own, so I don't get screwed up.

That with said I am seventy years and I think I had an brain fart. I just grabbed the wrong die from the box. I took my brothers Lake City brass, cleaned, de-primed-NECK sized, trimmed and de-burred. As I was at the range I noticed that the bolt was not closing easily. Just an other old age moment.

I do not shoot match, and never will. I won’t take the time to weight brass. I use only light wimpy barrel hunting rifles, and try to make them shoot sub MOA, some do and some don’t. You can see the Model 70 is very good with 48 three shot group that average below .88. I think the largest group was near 1.375

Lesson learned: For the people that roll your own, pay a ATTENTION.

RL357Mag 04-23-2009 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaGoo Idaho (Post 98019)
This is an 06 and is not any near a compressed load, that I do not do. I use the following, fastest to slowest H-4895, Varget, H-4350 and H-4831SC, in the following .223, .243, 25-35, .260, 270, 7mm-08, 300 Savage and 30-06. I think with 165 gr bullet and H-4831SC you could get to a compressed load, but it was not used. I do not load hot loads. Ninety percent of the time I neck size only. I only have one gun in each caliber that I own, so I don't get screwed up.

That with said I am seventy years and I think I had an brain fart. I just grabbed the wrong die from the box. I took my brothers Lake City brass, cleaned, de-primed-NECK sized, trimmed and de-burred. As I was at the range I noticed that the bolt was not closing easily. Just an other old age moment.

I do not shoot match, and never will. I won’t take the time to weight brass. I use only light wimpy barrel hunting rifles, and try to make them shoot sub MOA, some do and some don’t. You can see the Model 70 is very good with 48 three shot group that average below .88. I think the largest group was near 1.375

Lesson learned: For the people that roll your own, pay a ATTENTION.


Anyone who reloads long enough will make a mistake or two - hopefully they won't ruin a good gun or cause injury. I once neglected to charge a .40 S&W case with powder due to late night reloading (not a good idea!) That little mistake caused several bullets to get stuck in the barrel of my HiPoint carbine without so much as a bulge or damage to me. Thankfully, and unbeknownst to most of their detractors, HiPoint DOES make a quality carbine and they rebarreled the gun for free. As far as "compressed loads", I don't load "hot" either, in fact I usually load a grain below the max load listed in the Hogdon manual, but certain loads using specific powders are listed as "compressed" due to the bulk of the powder, not the intent of the reloader. In the Hogdon manual, the "C" following the recommended powder charge indicates "compressed". I do shoot benchrest (non-professionally) so I am more concerned with accuracy than velocity, and attaining maximum case volume with appropriate powders results in a higher level of accuracy than loads which result in less than maximum case volume of powder. The burn rate and hence, the pressure curve, is inconsistent with cases in the horizontal (chambered) position when air is present. This is why many benchrest shooters use fillers.

Catfish 04-23-2009 01:00 AM

I know that the old Lake City 06 brass was alot heaver than factory brass and that it had several gr`s. less capicity. If you were loading the same load into the Lake City brass as you were the comerical brass your loads would be alot hotter and not compariable to your other loads. Lake City is good brass, but you will need to work-up another load with it, probly 4 or 5 gr. less powder for close to the same load.

Rimfire McNutjob 04-23-2009 07:23 PM

Brass can be a very big factor in reload accuracy. IF you load using commericial brass then switch to milspec brass you need to drop your load by 10% and work back up.

I don't personally like LC brass I prefer remington or when I can afford it Laupa brass.


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