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Old 07-01-2012, 04:44 PM   #91
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OMG. Predictable. I wouldn't stand in front of someone throwing a paper airplane in my face or peeing on my leg and telling me it's raining either!
that's the best argument you can come up with! predictable, me? not hardly! i constantly look at information and evaluate it and sometimes might change my mind and choices when things prove differently or are better choices than what i have been using. first of all, my argument in the beginning for using #4 birdshot wasn't just blind faith. i tested it at distances i felt it might be used at. i also felt with my wife using the same shotgun, that the #4 would be easier for her to use, and still get satisfactory results.i also never ever said that #4 birdshot was superior to buckshot in a SD/HD application. i also don't just take someone else's word that something works. because of others arguments for buckshot, i have made the decision to try some different loads, but not from anything gained from you.

Hock, i have tried to several times to have informative debates with you on different subjects, but always your retorts are either insulting, critical or smart assed. you have no desire to debate subjects, you only think your opinion is the right one and that everyone else's opinion or suggestions are wrong. makes me wonder if you even have any friends with your holier than thou attitude. because if you treat others in person as you treat members here on the forum, i kind of doubt it. so my suggestion to you is, you might want to check out reading some some self-help books on improving how you relate to others in your responses and changing your attitude. you might find it will help you in making friends.
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Old 07-01-2012, 06:18 PM   #92
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Sometimes he sounds like a pimple faced teenager.

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Old 07-01-2012, 06:22 PM   #93
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Sometimes he sounds like a pimple faced teenager.
Probably because he is a wet behind the ears kid. Time to shut either him or this thread down before it devolves into a flame war worth of the_kid and shoobee
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Old 07-01-2012, 06:30 PM   #94
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All right, folks. I don't know much at all about shotguns and what damage they can do but I DO recognize bickering when I see it. Keep this thread on track in regards to politely and reasonably posting to "Best Home Defense 12-gauge Ammo". I know everyone has their preference but if you keep fighting as you are I will close this thread and send out a few warnings to some of you. If you don't know who you are, you will soon.

I've gotten a few complaints about some of the posts in this thread and I'm not going to babysit it much longer.

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Old 07-01-2012, 06:57 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by winds-of-change
All right, folks. I don't know much at all about shotguns and what damage they can do but I DO recognize bickering when I see it. Keep this thread on track in regards to politely and reasonably posting to "Best Home Defense 12-gauge Ammo". I know everyone has their preference but if you keep fighting as you are I will close this thread and send out a few warnings to some of you. If you don't know who you are, you will soon.

I've gotten a few complaints about some of the posts in this thread and I'm not going to babysit it much longer.
Ok momma ill go cut my switch now jk winds.
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Old 07-01-2012, 08:37 PM   #96
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Ok momma ill go cut my switch now jk winds.
You know the drill, dont come back with a small one.
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Old 07-01-2012, 08:44 PM   #97
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You know the drill, dont come back with a small one.
Why do ya think I brought back a 6' long sapling 4" thick
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:00 PM   #98
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Why do ya think I brought back a 6' long sapling 4" thick
There you go, we can all get whipped at the same time with that one
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:12 PM   #99
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For inside the home I use #4 Buck. OO also is fine as long as you can guarantee all the pellets hit the suspect and the distance you will be shooting. For example a 9 pellet 2 3/4 00 round is preferred. All 9 pellets will normally strike a silhouette in the upper torso of a man sized target within 20 yards. Any distance over that you will usually have at least one sometimes two flyers. As an example, if you ever attend an NRA Shotgun Instructor Course only take the 9 Pellet 2 3/4 OO Ammunition Standard Power. You will fail as a rule if you use 3" rounds or 12 Pellet 2 3/4 or High Power rounds. You will have flyers at 20 yards and 25. If you get flyers you fail. That is my thoughts that selecting the round for your shotgun you must consider. How many people are in the house. Locations and layout of the home or office. Distance of the shot and material of construction.
For example a 00 round form a 2 3/4 Shell will sometimes penetrate up to 8 thicknesses of drywall or 4 complete walls. Something to think about especialy should you have a flyer while engaging the bad guy and others are present in the home or other location. Of course at closer ranges I would hope all 9 pellets in this case would hit the bad guy. Only some thoughts. That is one reason for my choice of #4s they loose energy much quicker but are certainly more than lethal on any aggressor.

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Old 07-02-2012, 04:23 AM   #100
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Dr. Fackler has worked with most small arms ammo, to include rifle and shotgun ammo. His recommendations on shotgun loads do seem to carry some weight.

However, to put things in perspective he is usually recommending ammo for Law Enforcement use. This is also the basis for FBI standards on ammunition and penetration. This is where the 12" minimum comes from for the FBI.

Bear in mind that in law enforcement they are taking many scenarios into mind. This includes operating in multiple climates where layered clothing can make a big difference in how ammo performs. Law enforcement may have to engage targets inside of vehicles, behind barriers, etc and still make adequate penetration.

Just listening to a county medical examiner may not be quite as large a data base as someone who sees data from shootings alll over the country and overseas. A local ME only gets to see the dead patients. So if he sees a guy who took #4 Birdshot to the chest from 6 feet then 100% of the cases he has examined resulted in death. Does he know how long it took for the patient to expire? Does he know exactly how many layers of clothing the patient was wearing? Does he know if the guy took cover? Does he track the people who end up in ICU and make it after they have walked away from a shotgun blast of bird shot at greater than 18 feet, or the ones who had one lung collapse and still have the strength to resist arrest for 20 minutes with the air in the other lung?

I'm not trying to say that birdshot isn't leathal. I'm trying to say that there are so many variables that can come into play that it can make birdshot a less than reliable load to bet your life on.

These are variables each individual has to take into account for their own home and their own defense plan. If you plan on holing up in a room with the familiy and making the bad guy come to you through a "funnel" if they are going to become a threat, then bird shot may be a great choice as long as the plan holds up.

Shotguns are versitile adn you could easily have a "back-up" load of heavier shot to account for a variation in the plan, and you practice load swaps on a regular basis so you can shuck a shell and port load a buckshot load or a slug without looking. Good training.

Accepting the FBI standard may not be the best for someone in an appartment. Your average civilian home owners and apartment dwellers don't have to shoot through cars (Hopefully) to defend the house.

For me it's going to be a buckshot load though. But I have the potential in my hose to make one or two shots that could span 25-30 feet against an armed assailant. My closest neighbors live at least another 20 yds away with all others outside of 50 yds in any direction with fences to also help slow down shot along the way as well as their own walls.

Hitting a guy in the vitals may be a bit more of a challenge with bird shot if he takes a position like this:



Instead of being like this when it's time to shoot:
(That's a number 4, 3" turkey shot load in the belly at 21 feet, by the way)

what did you shoot the head with?
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